What do you feel is the most generally MISUNDERSTOOD part of maintaining a Reef?

ClownWrangler

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 2, 2020
Messages
680
Reaction score
646
Location
Tacoma, WA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I don’t mean to ‘snap’ at you, but there is so much wrong here. Cryptic zones, anoxic areas, and carbon dosing are all very well documented and common things in the hobby. Some of the most popular and effective filtration medias and additives in the hobby are built on these principles (marine pure blocks, No3Pox, etc.). These are time tested (cryptic zones less so), effective ways of promoting denitrification in our tanks. Cryptic zones are one of the newer concepts and need more research, but there are countless examples of people running very successful reefs long term using cryptic zones as the primary way of controlling nutrients. I think you need to do some more reading.

I never accused you of snapping at me, that was directed at Anthony. But he may have been just joking. I see that now.

I've done plenty of reading. Enough to know this is just another cult in the hobby. If these methods were as effective as people claim, chaeto would have been obsolete decades ago. Yes, the science behind it is legitimate, but perception of scale and rates are highly skewed. Cryptic zones make sense for true filtering, IE sponges, but we are talking about something else here. Cryptic zones are not anoxic, so can not host de-nitrifying processes. Like I said, corals absorb quite a bit of nitrates and phosphates, so years of anecdotal evidence amongst the small cult following you speak of do not prove what you think it does. Association does not prove causation. Show me tank with waste producers with a moderate or high bio load and no photosynthetic organisms that has low nitrates and phosphates without water changes and I will be convinced.

in Anthony's words "seems like an untapped resource we don't explore." and you are saying its long tested and proven. Both of those assertions cant be true.
 
Last edited:

MaxTremors

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
3,625
Reaction score
6,213
Location
Boise
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I've done plenty of reading. Enough to know this is just another cult in the hobby. If these methods were as effective as people claim, chaeto would have been obsolete decades ago. Yes, the science behind it is legitimate, but perception of scale and rates are highly skewed. Like I said, corals absorb quite a bit of nitrates and phosphates, so years of anecdotal evidence amongst the small cult following you speak of do not prove what you think it does. Association does not prove causation.
Well, if Tyree, Holmes-Farley, and countless other legends in the hobby are a ‘cult’, sign me up. But you’ve now you’ve moved the goal post, first it was live rock can’t denitrify, now it’s that it doesn’t denitrify enough, and either way you’re wrong.

Also, chaeto is one of many options for denitrification and can be used in conjunction with these other methods (Randy Holmes-Farley uses both carbon dosing and macro algae), there is no one best method. Carbon dosing and anoxic areas are both becoming more and more popular in the hobby, NO3POX and Marine Pure blocks are two of the best selling filter medias/additives on the market. To dismiss any of these methods as a ‘cult’ in the hobby is just absurd. If you don’t want to use these methods, don’t, but there’s really no debate to be had, the science is sound, they’re incredibly popular, and the results speak for themselves. They’re just some of the several methods that can help you achieve a successful reef tank, so it seems to me like you’re the one exhibiting the cult-like behavior with your one-size-fits-all thinking.
 

Reef and Dive

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
1,108
Reaction score
5,117
Location
Brazil
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
To me the relation of colors and coral health. That’s a reefers concept that many times go far against scientific studies.

We want colorful corals, ok, that’s just what we like and what we aim for.

We intentionally or unintentionally put our corals under some stress to achieve that: UV spectrum (yes in many scientific studies UV is exactly THE stress factor), very intense lights, very low nutrients, even copper dosing…

I think some of that is quite ok, but what troubles me is what most reefers “think is true” being so opposite to “what scientific studies show”.
 

MabuyaQ

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
432
Reaction score
602
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
It is not difficult to care for corals and/or fish to keep them happy, you take care of bacteria first to keep them happy. If you do, corals and/or fish are easy to care for.
 

blasterman

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 14, 2019
Messages
1,730
Reaction score
2,018
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That salt mixes all contain necessary trace elements and there's some kind of standard in regards to trace elements. Ive heard more truth uttered by carnival barkers.

Honorable mention to the perpetuated myth that corals require violet or UV light.
 

Ashish Patel

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
2,575
Location
Marlboro NJ
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
LOL but kinda feeling like need to be. I'm still struggling almost two years into it.
LOL, I get it but once you see acros grow it seems to become less mad scientist and more knowing what works and what does not. Its the same with everything like right now I am trying to get the best lawn on the block but this is probably harder then growing corals.
I tell my buddies getting into the hobby just become a master of testing alk and you will have success assuming your not baking them with too much light or flow or insufficient biological stability. Anways, best of luck
 

Anthony Scholfield

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 13, 2019
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
1,260
Location
Eau Claire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
System biology (microbiology, species interaction, holobiont, etc) this is the new frontier. Water chemistry is to some extent well understood.

I don’t mean to ‘snap’ at you, but there is so much wrong here. Cryptic zones, anoxic areas, and carbon dosing are all very well documented and common things in the hobby. Some of the most popular and effective filtration medias and additives in the hobby are built on these principles (marine pure blocks, No3Pox, etc.). These are time tested (cryptic zones less so), effective ways of promoting denitrification in our tanks. Cryptic zones are one of the newer concepts and need more research, but there are countless examples of people running very successful reefs long term using cryptic zones as the primary way of controlling nutrients. I think you need to do some more reading.

Well, if Tyree, Holmes-Farley, and countless other legends in the hobby are a ‘cult’, sign me up. But you’ve now you’ve moved the goal post, first it was live rock can’t denitrify, now it’s that it doesn’t denitrify enough, and either way you’re wrong.

Also, chaeto is one of many options for denitrification and can be used in conjunction with these other methods (Randy Holmes-Farley uses both carbon dosing and macro algae), there is no one best method. Carbon dosing and anoxic areas are both becoming more and more popular in the hobby, NO3POX and Marine Pure blocks are two of the best selling filter medias/additives on the market. To dismiss any of these methods as a ‘cult’ in the hobby is just absurd. If you don’t want to use these methods, don’t, but there’s really no debate to be had, the science is sound, they’re incredibly popular, and the results speak for themselves. They’re just some of the several methods that can help you achieve a successful reef tank, so it seems to me like you’re the one exhibiting the cult-like behavior with your one-size-fits-all thinking.

Yes, thank you!

I never accused you of snapping at me, that was directed at Anthony. But he may have been just joking. I see that now.

I've done plenty of reading. Enough to know this is just another cult in the hobby. If these methods were as effective as people claim, chaeto would have been obsolete decades ago. Yes, the science behind it is legitimate, but perception of scale and rates are highly skewed. Cryptic zones make sense for true filtering, IE sponges, but we are talking about something else here. Cryptic zones are not anoxic, so can not host de-nitrifying processes. Like I said, corals absorb quite a bit of nitrates and phosphates, so years of anecdotal evidence amongst the small cult following you speak of do not prove what you think it does. Association does not prove causation. Show me tank with waste producers with a moderate or high bio load and no photosynthetic organisms that has low nitrates and phosphates without water changes and I will be convinced.

in Anthony's words "seems like an untapped resource we don't explore." and you are saying its long tested and proven. Both of those assertions cant be true.

I do not mean untapped as it hasnt been explored scientifically but untapped as it isnt talked about, considered or thought through much as a potential benefit to our systems as a whole. These things are good for a lot more than nutrient export. Its about health and vitality of our systems.

I challenge you to widen your view and perspective. I mean this in all sincerity! Not trying to be a smart butt or snap at you but being "well read" will only get you so far my friend.
 

ClownWrangler

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 2, 2020
Messages
680
Reaction score
646
Location
Tacoma, WA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I do not mean untapped as it hasnt been explored scientifically but untapped as it isnt talked about, considered or thought through much as a potential benefit to our systems as a whole. These things are good for a lot more than nutrient export. Its about health and vitality of our systems.

Nice backpedal. You went from asking a question admitting you were unsure about something, to not liking an answer, to pretending like you are an expert. Don't ask a question if you don't want alternative perspectives. I challenge you to widen your view and perspective. I mean this in all sincerity! Not trying to be a smart butt or snap at you but being "well read" will only get you so far my friend.

I'm an engineer. I now more than a little about diffusion rates, gas exchange and what it takes to create anoxic regions. I'm not sure you even know what that means. It means death for anything that requires free oxygen to survive. The only major anoxic region in a tank is under the sand bed, and its anoxic because there is little to no gas exchange. Getting the nitrates to this region without getting oxygen to it would require some form of degassing. Its possible, but would be tricky and expensive to achieve it at a respectable rate.

In terms of your retort about being open minded. I'm listening, please explain how your legends overcame the challenges I mentioned. I have no doubt they have very successful and healthy tanks, but it may not be entirely for the reasons they think.

BTW, Hunblefish is a "legend" in the hobby too, but he has moved on from this forum. I'm beginning to see why.
 
Last edited:

KrisReef

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
11,546
Reaction score
27,329
Location
ADX Florence
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
What do you feel is the most generally MISUNDERSTOOD part of maintaining a Reef?
The great barrier reef doesn't have a skimmer, nor a controller, and no LED's, but it still seems to get by ok somehow? It may effectively have automatic water changes (and an ATO) but what I'm most impressed with is the absence of GFO or vodka dosing and yet look at the stability of the whole system.
 

Anthony Scholfield

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 13, 2019
Messages
1,000
Reaction score
1,260
Location
Eau Claire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Nice backpedal. You went from asking a question admitting you were unsure about something, to not liking an answer, to pretending like you are an expert. Don't ask a question if you don't want alternative perspectives. I challenge you to widen your view and perspective. I mean this in all sincerity! Not trying to be a smart butt or snap at you but being "well read" will only get you so far my friend.

I'm an engineer. I now more than a little about diffusion rates, gas exchange and what it takes to create anoxic regions. I'm not sure you even know what that means. It means death for anything that requires free oxygen to survive. The only major anoxic region in a tank is under the sand bed, and its anoxic because there is little to no gas exchange. Getting the nitrates to this region without getting oxygen to it would require some form of degassing. Its possible, but would be tricky and expensive to achieve it at a respectable rate.

In terms of your retort about being open minded. I'm listening, please explain how your legends overcame the challenges I mentioned. I have no doubt they have very successful and healthy tanks, but it may not be entirely for the reasons they think.

BTW, Hunblefish is a "legend" in the hobby too, but he has moved on from this forum. I'm beginning to see why.
wow! Im not sure what im back peddling from but okay.

I just shared some thoughts which in turn you made a comment that in my perception did not really relate to my thought. I then commented a bit tongue and cheek and moved on with my business. You then used my name so i felt i should give you a little clarity of what i meant earlier. I dont recall ever actually asking a question. Not sure where i pretended to be an expert either.

Now im backpeddling. Its clear from your responses here you are not someone i want on my team. Im glad you think youre smarter than me and i dont understand you. Typical know it all complex. That also will lead you down a short road. you know what happens when you "assume"?!

I do not have legends in this hobby. I did not talk about legends. I do it cause its beautiful and amazing. Its a little part of creation in my living room that brings awe to my mind and heart. Its way beyond us and to think you will fully understand the ocean and all that keeps it going is foolish.

I will move along now. Remember you are the one that continued to bring me into this.
 

ClownWrangler

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 2, 2020
Messages
680
Reaction score
646
Location
Tacoma, WA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The great barrier reef doesn't have a skimmer, nor a controller, and no LED's, but it still seems to get by ok somehow? It may effectively have automatic water changes (and an ATO) but what I'm most impressed with is the absence of GFO or vodka dosing and yet look at the stability of the whole system.

I was joking about vodka dosing earlier as a carbon source (ethanol), people are actually doing it?
 

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,796
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Many people can't grasp the idea that algae, bacteria, viruses "and" parasites which are all natural and our fish were built to live with them, can be used for our benefit and when we try to fight those things or eliminate them, we have to have a disease forum.

We try to "cure" or remove those things and they will all come back at different times in different numbers to destroy our tanks and cause us untold problems which are difficult or impossible to alleviate.

All those things work together, or against each other to keep each of their numbers in check so not one of them gets to strong or numerous.
Parasites and bacteria are attacked by viruses. Algae is the best water purifier.
 
Last edited:

KrisReef

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
11,546
Reaction score
27,329
Location
ADX Florence
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I was joking about vodka dosing earlier as a carbon source (ethanol), people are actually doing it?
Yes, they do.
 

Grey Guy

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
568
Reaction score
457
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
that you can spend your way into a healthy beautiful reef tank. And thinking you need expensive equipment and all sorts of controllers and gadgets to do it right.
I did that. Lost about $6,000 with all the equipment being poorly managed and ruined. Could not leave it alone. The constant monitoring and constant fiddling did me and my tank in.
 

flyfisher2

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
1,764
Reaction score
2,829
Location
Central Florida
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Not being in EXACT recommended level and going nuts trying to get there. Adding all kinds of crap to tank to achieve the next persons ideal settings. P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E!!!!
 
Back
Top