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I don’t mean to ‘snap’ at you, but there is so much wrong here. Cryptic zones, anoxic areas, and carbon dosing are all very well documented and common things in the hobby. Some of the most popular and effective filtration medias and additives in the hobby are built on these principles (marine pure blocks, No3Pox, etc.). These are time tested (cryptic zones less so), effective ways of promoting denitrification in our tanks. Cryptic zones are one of the newer concepts and need more research, but there are countless examples of people running very successful reefs long term using cryptic zones as the primary way of controlling nutrients. I think you need to do some more reading.
Well, if Tyree, Holmes-Farley, and countless other legends in the hobby are a ‘cult’, sign me up. But you’ve now you’ve moved the goal post, first it was live rock can’t denitrify, now it’s that it doesn’t denitrify enough, and either way you’re wrong.I've done plenty of reading. Enough to know this is just another cult in the hobby. If these methods were as effective as people claim, chaeto would have been obsolete decades ago. Yes, the science behind it is legitimate, but perception of scale and rates are highly skewed. Like I said, corals absorb quite a bit of nitrates and phosphates, so years of anecdotal evidence amongst the small cult following you speak of do not prove what you think it does. Association does not prove causation.
LOL, I get it but once you see acros grow it seems to become less mad scientist and more knowing what works and what does not. Its the same with everything like right now I am trying to get the best lawn on the block but this is probably harder then growing corals.LOL but kinda feeling like need to be. I'm still struggling almost two years into it.
System biology (microbiology, species interaction, holobiont, etc) this is the new frontier. Water chemistry is to some extent well understood.
I don’t mean to ‘snap’ at you, but there is so much wrong here. Cryptic zones, anoxic areas, and carbon dosing are all very well documented and common things in the hobby. Some of the most popular and effective filtration medias and additives in the hobby are built on these principles (marine pure blocks, No3Pox, etc.). These are time tested (cryptic zones less so), effective ways of promoting denitrification in our tanks. Cryptic zones are one of the newer concepts and need more research, but there are countless examples of people running very successful reefs long term using cryptic zones as the primary way of controlling nutrients. I think you need to do some more reading.
Well, if Tyree, Holmes-Farley, and countless other legends in the hobby are a ‘cult’, sign me up. But you’ve now you’ve moved the goal post, first it was live rock can’t denitrify, now it’s that it doesn’t denitrify enough, and either way you’re wrong.
Also, chaeto is one of many options for denitrification and can be used in conjunction with these other methods (Randy Holmes-Farley uses both carbon dosing and macro algae), there is no one best method. Carbon dosing and anoxic areas are both becoming more and more popular in the hobby, NO3POX and Marine Pure blocks are two of the best selling filter medias/additives on the market. To dismiss any of these methods as a ‘cult’ in the hobby is just absurd. If you don’t want to use these methods, don’t, but there’s really no debate to be had, the science is sound, they’re incredibly popular, and the results speak for themselves. They’re just some of the several methods that can help you achieve a successful reef tank, so it seems to me like you’re the one exhibiting the cult-like behavior with your one-size-fits-all thinking.
I never accused you of snapping at me, that was directed at Anthony. But he may have been just joking. I see that now.
I've done plenty of reading. Enough to know this is just another cult in the hobby. If these methods were as effective as people claim, chaeto would have been obsolete decades ago. Yes, the science behind it is legitimate, but perception of scale and rates are highly skewed. Cryptic zones make sense for true filtering, IE sponges, but we are talking about something else here. Cryptic zones are not anoxic, so can not host de-nitrifying processes. Like I said, corals absorb quite a bit of nitrates and phosphates, so years of anecdotal evidence amongst the small cult following you speak of do not prove what you think it does. Association does not prove causation. Show me tank with waste producers with a moderate or high bio load and no photosynthetic organisms that has low nitrates and phosphates without water changes and I will be convinced.
in Anthony's words "seems like an untapped resource we don't explore." and you are saying its long tested and proven. Both of those assertions cant be true.
I do not mean untapped as it hasnt been explored scientifically but untapped as it isnt talked about, considered or thought through much as a potential benefit to our systems as a whole. These things are good for a lot more than nutrient export. Its about health and vitality of our systems.
The great barrier reef doesn't have a skimmer, nor a controller, and no LED's, but it still seems to get by ok somehow? It may effectively have automatic water changes (and an ATO) but what I'm most impressed with is the absence of GFO or vodka dosing and yet look at the stability of the whole system.What do you feel is the most generally MISUNDERSTOOD part of maintaining a Reef?
wow! Im not sure what im back peddling from but okay.Nice backpedal. You went from asking a question admitting you were unsure about something, to not liking an answer, to pretending like you are an expert. Don't ask a question if you don't want alternative perspectives. I challenge you to widen your view and perspective. I mean this in all sincerity! Not trying to be a smart butt or snap at you but being "well read" will only get you so far my friend.
I'm an engineer. I now more than a little about diffusion rates, gas exchange and what it takes to create anoxic regions. I'm not sure you even know what that means. It means death for anything that requires free oxygen to survive. The only major anoxic region in a tank is under the sand bed, and its anoxic because there is little to no gas exchange. Getting the nitrates to this region without getting oxygen to it would require some form of degassing. Its possible, but would be tricky and expensive to achieve it at a respectable rate.
In terms of your retort about being open minded. I'm listening, please explain how your legends overcame the challenges I mentioned. I have no doubt they have very successful and healthy tanks, but it may not be entirely for the reasons they think.
BTW, Hunblefish is a "legend" in the hobby too, but he has moved on from this forum. I'm beginning to see why.
The great barrier reef doesn't have a skimmer, nor a controller, and no LED's, but it still seems to get by ok somehow? It may effectively have automatic water changes (and an ATO) but what I'm most impressed with is the absence of GFO or vodka dosing and yet look at the stability of the whole system.
I am trying to get the best lawn on the block but this is probably harder then growing corals.
Yes, they do.I was joking about vodka dosing earlier as a carbon source (ethanol), people are actually doing it?
I did that. Lost about $6,000 with all the equipment being poorly managed and ruined. Could not leave it alone. The constant monitoring and constant fiddling did me and my tank in.that you can spend your way into a healthy beautiful reef tank. And thinking you need expensive equipment and all sorts of controllers and gadgets to do it right.