What drives acro color outside of lighting?

[Daddy-o]

All that dosing nitrate is doing is feeding the anoxic bacteria in your rocks/sand - they are just going to keep gobbling it up. Micro algae (think zoox) cannot use nitrate and get their nitrogen from ammonia/ammonium. I am sorry that so many people on the board wrongly parrot the inaccuracy that nitrate is a coral food or nutrient, but you would be better off dosing ammonium or ammonia... or just feeding the fish more. Nitrate can provide building blocks to lots of things, just does not help most coral the way that they think.

So if I am following what you are saying. Nitrate is just a measure of ammonia that didnt get used by the corals and when that ammonia is converted to nitrate, it is useless?
Cheers! Mark

 

[MentalNote]

jda,

Why is it not both?

See figure below. I read it that corals take in ammonium and nitrates - and this is reflected in other journal papers. Here is the reference link: A single-cell view of ammonium assimilation in coral–dinoflagellate symbiosis

 

[jda]

Some corals can turn no3 back into ammoni[a,um] at a large energy expense that is likely harmful to the coral. We are in the SPS forum where this does not really happen. Insert C has no no3 in it - this is what I was speaking of... they cannot use no3 and having more than just a small trace does not do anything.

We do a really bad job as hobbyists and on this board of saying "corals" in the generic sense and not drilling down into certain kinds. Some need to catch food to live, some don't need to at all. What some of us call coral are not coral at all (true coral leave skeletons behind) and really colonial 'nems (mushrooms, Z&P, etc.). The point is that corals are not all the same.

The tissue of most corals can use straight no3 to build tissue, but only a very small trace of this is needed like .1 ppm like what is in the ocean is good enough for this.

The point is that adding straight no3 to the tank and skipping the ammonia/ammonium does not do what people think that it does. Even people with higher levels of no3 that feed a lot often fail to understand that it was the high levels of ammonia/ammonium and not the residual levels of no3 that made the difference.

If we just take the percentages in table A at face value for all corals, which is somewhat dangerous to assume that all corals are the same, but let's go with it. Say ammonium is 42% and no3 is less than this, then take a look at your tank... you will be lucky to measure a trace of ammonium in the water and available, yet the corals should be thriving. ...so this means that you need less than a trace of no3? ...so what happens to those extra no3 that people dose for their corals to "eat?"

 

[jda]

Nitrate is not useless to the tank as a whole, but excess mostly is. Macro algae will love it. You can poison dinos and sometimes cyano with higher levels of it. You need no3. You just don't need much of it. Everything needs nitrogen, but not everything can get nitrogen from no3 - this is where ammonia/ammonium come into play.

Throughput - heavy import of foods and heavy export of no3 and po4 is the goal. Lots of availability running through the tank at any given time, but low residual levels.

 

[CCauthers]

Great discussion so far, thanks for keeping it civil

 

[jda]

BTW - you can get ammonium at Ace Hardware and many other places. If somebody feels compelled to dose, why not dose this instead of sodium nitrate, or the like? It will turn into nitrate anyway down the road if you dose too much, but also help out in other places.

 

[C. Eymann]

All that dosing nitrate is doing is feeding the anoxic bacteria in your rocks/sand - they are just going to keep gobbling it up. Micro algae (think zoox) cannot use nitrate and get their nitrogen from ammonia/ammonium. I am sorry that so many people on the board wrongly parrot the inaccuracy that nitrate is a coral food or nutrient, but you would be better off dosing ammonium or ammonia... or just feeding the fish more. Nitrate can provide building blocks to lots of things, just does not help most coral the way that they think.

jda,

Why is it not both?

See figure below. I read it that corals take in ammonium and nitrates - and this is reflected in other journal papers. Here is the reference link: A single-cell view of ammonium assimilation in coral–dinoflagellate symbiosis

"wrongly parroting"


@jda

Can you provide sources for this insightful information you have shared?
While I do agree corals utilize ammonium/ammonia for a lot of their nitrogen requirements, there is quite a few false statements in your posts ITT.

 

[Daddy-o]

jda,

Why is it not both?

See figure below. I read it that corals take in ammonium and nitrates - and this is reflected in other journal papers. Here is the reference link: A single-cell view of ammonium assimilation in coral–dinoflagellate symbiosis

Do you have the simplified version for us non-sciency types? or a quick explanation?

 

[t5Nitro]

I ran 4b+ and 4c+ for 14 months with good growth and color.
Changed a month ago to 2 250 watt de 14k phoenix MH.
My colors are really looking good a month after firing them up.
Much more color, imo.
I run them 9 hrs and switched from 9hr T5 with no rampup just full on.
No suplemental lights just the MH.
No other changes to parameters.
Love these lights!

Awww! I have an 8x39W ATI sunpower on the way. Partially wishing that I just went with the halide! Hah. Either way a big upgrade to the struggle bus that playing with an LED is, I hope. Will be running 4 b+, 2 c+, 1 actinic, 1 geisemann tropic 6500K.

Question for you guys on total photoperiod, if I'm running max intensity for 5 hours, and [Max intensity - 20%] for additional 1.5 hours at the beginning and end of that period for a total of 8 hours, is this generally too short of a cycle? It looks like many people are aiming for closer to 9-12Hr at near max intensity. Before and after that 8 hour period then my LED is ramping up or down for a total 12 hour period.

 

[lemonade]

Awww! I have an 8x39W ATI sunpower on the way. Partially wishing that I just went with the halide! Hah. Either way a big upgrade to the struggle bus that playing with an LED is, I hope. Will be running 4 b+, 2 c+, 1 actinic, 1 geisemann tropic 6500K.

Question for you guys on total photoperiod, if I'm running max intensity for 5 hours, and [Max intensity - 20%] for additional 1.5 hours at the beginning and end of that period for a total of 8 hours, is this generally too short of a cycle? It looks like many people are aiming for closer to 9-12Hr at near max intensity. Before and after that 8 hour period then my LED is ramping up or down for a total 12 hour period.

With the Sunpower T5s I have never ran more than a 8hr photoperiod. That's all bulbs and ReefBrites on the whole 8hrs nothing to lower intensity throughout photoperiod. I've always been happy with 8hrs and never felt the need to run more or less. Guess it depends partly on how high you hang your fixture, though.

 

[SMSREEF]

..so what happens to those extra no3 that people dose for their corals to "eat?"

Our tanks are not just saltwater and coral. They have many different forms of life, some of which (including coral) can use nitrate as a nitrogen source.
One of these other forms is micro algae. Snails and other inverts and organisms eat that micro algae and then release ammonia as waste. If corals don’t get it on first pass as nitrate they have a second chance.

 

[Potatohead]

With the Sunpower T5s I have never ran more than a 8hr photoperiod. That's all bulbs and ReefBrites on the whole 8hrs nothing to lower intensity throughout photoperiod. I've always been happy with 8hrs and never felt the need to run more or less. Guess it depends partly on how high you hang your fixture, though.

Yeah, I only run all eight bulbs 6.5 hours and the dusk dawn for another 75 minutes on each end, no supplemental led. It definitely seems like enough.

 

[onetootreefor]

Hey all! About 5-6 months ago I made this post, and wanted to provide an update...

I used some advice from this thread, and I can tell you 2 things that are helping my wd color up...

1. don’t chase low nutrient numbers!!!!!
2. I cranked up my radion intensity very slowly, and the higher it goes the more the colors start to come out. I don’t know what par it’s in now but I started at ~300 par with radions at 50%. They are currently at 80% now and im going to keep pushing toward 100

here is a 6 moth side by side for growth and color, taken with the same phone, same orphek lens and no edits under blues

 

[Pistol Peet]

Hey all! About 5-6 months ago I made this post, and wanted to provide an update...

I used some advice from this thread, and I can tell you 2 things that are helping my wd color up...

1. don’t chase low nutrient numbers!!!!!
2. I cranked up my radion intensity very slowly, and the higher it goes the more the colors start to come out. I don’t know what par it’s in now but I started at ~300 par with radions at 50%. They are currently at 80% now and im going to keep pushing toward 100

here is a 6 moth side by side for growth and color, taken with the same phone, same orphek lens and no edits under blues

Very impressive

 

[Niels V]

@ onetootreefor
''1. don’t chase low nutrient numbers!!!!!''

Did you dose P and or N or did you just feed more?

 

[onetootreefor]

@ onetootreefor
''1. don’t chase low nutrient numbers!!!!!''

Did you dose P and or N or did you just feed more?

I got a couple more fish and fed a LOT more.
Started using pellets regularly in addition to mysis, and that seemed to do the trick.

 

[SheenaO]

I would really like to see a picture Because you can find thread on top of thread with people agreeing higher par brings out pinks in wd and colors in other tenuis hence the term cooking/baking acros comes from

Under 400-500 par..ai lighting

 

[onetootreefor]

Under 400-500 par..ai lighting

Hope mine can eventually color up like this!

 

[SheenaO]

Hope mine can eventually color up like this!

It will...steady parameters and high light

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Under 400-500 par..ai lighting

Beauty
What’s your AI schedule? What model AI’s are you using?