What ever happened to the Vertex Cerebra?

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Cyricdark

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You haven't convinced me - For me and alone for me - they are in the same bucket 1 year, 3 years, whats the difference?....and yes I'm an apex user (well invested too); for now.

There are times I defend Neptune and there are times I don't. I am just a consumer - I don't subscribe to fanboyism in any form or take sides. I praise good products and/or features and I'm vocal about my disappointments.

To keep it short: The fact that "your buddies" have a working model doesn't change the fact that the product hasn't hit the shelf. Neither the one from Neptune nor the one from Vertex - PERIOD!
Well I'm no math expert but let me see 3 - 1 yeah that's a pretty significant two years. I also am nobody's fanboy I have an apex I bought it on Black Friday and it's still sitting on the shelf in the Box but to compare the release of these two products is absolutely ridiculous one was handled as good as it could be and one was handled about as badly as it could be. And as far as my buddies in The Reef Club having tridents if you think I'm lying about that since you sound disbelieving and put it in quotes go to the St Louis Reef Club SLASH Forum on this board and you'll see two people talking about having one then apologizing that they can't say anything about it for the most part because of non-disclosure agreement. And you're right neither one has hit the Shelf yet but I will hands down 100% say that I am confident that the Neptune Trident will hit the shelves way before the vertex cerebra ever does and I'm basing that on the fact that Terrence hasn't lied to me repeatedly about any dates like vertex has.
 

BZOFIQ

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Well I'm no math expert but let me see 3 - 1 yeah that's a pretty significant two years. I also am nobody's fanboy I have an apex I bought it on Black Friday and it's still sitting on the shelf in the Box but to compare the release of these two products is absolutely ridiculous one was handled as good as it could be and one was handled about as badly as it could be. And as far as my buddies in The Reef Club having tridents if you think I'm lying about that since you sound disbelieving and put it in quotes go to the St Louis Reef Club SLASH Forum on this board and you'll see two people talking about having one then apologizing that they can't say anything about it for the most part because of non-disclosure agreement. And you're right neither one has hit the Shelf yet but I will hands down 100% say that I am confident that the Neptune Trident will hit the shelves way before the vertex cerebra ever does and I'm basing that on the fact that Terrence hasn't lied to me repeatedly about any dates like vertex has.
Let me break it down so I address each of your points.

Well I'm no math expert but let me see 3 - 1 yeah that's a pretty significant two years - One is late and another is late; simple.

I also am nobody's fanboy I have an apex I bought it on Black Friday and it's still sitting on the shelf in the Box - I have been an APEX user for more than 10 years I've learned to accept their limitations and employ redundancies so make the product usable and reliable. I even bought the new APEX, despite of the fact that I absolutely hate their new design and choice of materials. Despite this fact, I am searching for bigger and better....or more reliable to be honest. I have already experienced few hiccups with the new model that I havent had with the classic - no warm and fuzzy feeling here. Am I a fanboy? Absolutely not! Am I looking at alternatives to see if one can achieve my goals better? - you bet.

to compare the release of these two products is absolutely ridiculous one was handled as good as it could .... - No it hasn't, as good as it could would mean the product was released Q2-2018 or earlier, that's as good as it could. Anything after projected release is LATE, something you refuse to accept. If the plane leaves at 9 and you show up at 10, despite your best effort...you are late. Hope we've got that cleared.

And as far as my buddies in The Reef Club having tridents if you think I'm lying about that since you sound disbelieving and put it in quotes - This has nothing to do with me believing you or not and everything to do with the fact that your buddies having one doesn't do anything for me or the many users waiting for the product. You're probably one of the many people that drive a Honda and say your buddy has a Ferrari. I don't care what my buddies have or drive, I care what I can get my hands on. Can I get my hands on a Trident? - Big fat NO! Do I drive a Honda? yes, with pleasure.

And you're right neither one has hit the Shelf yet- Yes I was right, go on...

...but I will hands down 100% say that I am confident that the Neptune Trident will hit the shelves way before the vertex cerebra ever does and I'm basing that on the fact that Terrence hasn't lied to me repeatedly about any dates like vertex has. - Your confidence in Neptune as company is overwhelming but I don't share it; perhaps you'll get your Trident in time to take your Apex out of the box and start using it. I'll buy it when it hits the shelf and the initial reviews are out.

When a new product is ready to ship be it Trident or the new controller by Vertex I get excited. For the sake of this discussion one (Trident) adds much needed functionality to the already existing eco-system, the other (Cerebra) introduces a much needed alternative.

I said it before and I'm going to say it again - the more controllers we have, the better it is for everybody in this hobby. Everybody wins!
 

Pauley

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Cerebra has been in development much longer than that. After the first few beta forum updates, my hobby became researching the history of the project. Although Vertex just released their brick in 2016, they’ve been making promises for closer to a decade. Here’s a few highlights:

Here's the link to the "great unveiling" at MACNA 2013 .

Here's a 2011 conversation about the pending release of the Cerebra. Beta testers will especially appreciate the eerie similarity of promises concerning minor delays, final testing, and of course, the infamous by the end of the month. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2086976.html
As for me personally- I get mad when a company doesn’t deliver on time. However, I understand that poopy happens. As long as they are honest, forthcoming, and make an effort to keep customers informed, it’s not the end of the world. As long as they’re not ******s about it to their customers in the process, they’ll probably keep my business.

I consider what Vertex has done to be completely different. Like several companies, they failed to deliver on time. But, their response has been repeated and blatant lies, to the point where literally nothing in the updates can be trusted. To me, that’s disrespectful to a loyal customer base, and the greater failure. I hope this controller finally gets delivered, but whether it does or doesn’t, I’ll never buy another Vertex product out of principle. Again, just my opinion.
 

hart24601

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Cerebra has been in development much longer than that. After the first few beta forum updates, my hobby became researching the history of the project. Although Vertex just released their brick in 2016, they’ve been making promises for closer to a decade. Here’s a few highlights:



As for me personally- I get mad when a company doesn’t deliver on time. However, I understand that poopy happens. As long as they are honest, forthcoming, and make an effort to keep customers informed, it’s not the end of the world. As long as they’re not ******s about it to their customers in the process, they’ll probably keep my business.

I consider what Vertex has done to be completely different. Like several companies, they failed to deliver on time. But, their response has been repeated and blatant lies, to the point where literally nothing in the updates can be trusted. To me, that’s disrespectful to a loyal customer base, and the greater failure. I hope this controller finally gets delivered, but whether it does or doesn’t, I’ll never buy another Vertex product out of principle. Again, just my opinion.

Wow! That is crazy. I like their skimmers but flat out won't own that controller if it even eventually comes out. Heck this makes me move away from the skimmers even.
 

Sleepydoc

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There are several key differences between vertex and Neptune:

Vertex announced the cerebra in 2013. In June, 2016 they finally announce that they are coming out with the controller. They initially announced an introductory price. Later they change/clarify that it's a beta version but are adamant that the hardware is final, it's only the software that is beta. Units start shipping around the beginning of August. After it shipped there was some controversy surrounding the power bar design. Vertex had a support forum that as open only to users, so any accounts of problems were indirect from these users. 4-5 months after it came out (around Jan, 2017) Vertex announced they were completely redesigning the entire controller from the ground up and promised it would be come out May 2017. Since that time I have seen nothing official from Vertex. I have seen several posts by people who had 'talked to someone close to the design process,' etc; essentially rumors periodically saying they were almost done, waiting on parts, etc. We are now at Feb, 2019, almost 2 years later without any official announcement from Vertex.

Neptune announced the Trident August, 2017 with initial plans to ship to their 'insiders' Q1, 2018. They have recently shipped the first units to their insiders for testing, approx 9 months late.

In short, Vertex took people’s money. Neptune announced a product but has not taken a single dollar or even a reservation from anyone at this time. Vertex initially stated the units were for sale at an introductory price, then stated they were a final hardware version but a beta software only to say they were redesigning the entire controller.

If you're just looking at time frames, both companies are late. Vertex is still far later than Neptune. For me, the bigger issues is that Vertex sold people a controller for $700. Whether they knew that the hardware was insufficient at the time or not is open for debate, and your view will likely match whatever bias you have for or against vertex. Around the time of the release of V1, they made some statements about the hardware that seemed suspicious to me at the time, but that's my impression. Regardless, 4-5 months after coming out with the controller they decide that they are starting over. They don't offer refunds, they just leave everyone hanging, out $700.

Yes, there's a big difference.
 

Sleepydoc

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To clarify, the controller was $349 not $700, but the rest of your comments are on point.
Thanks - was that for the entire controller setup or just the head unit? Premium Aquatics still has the listing for the prima package (controller, power bar, probes) for $700. I remember it being cheaper but I couldn't remember the exact price or whether it was just the head unit or the entire package. I do remember looking at it at the time, as I was considering buying one it it being close to $700.
 

DarkSky

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Thanks - was that for the entire controller setup or just the head unit? Premium Aquatics still has the listing for the prima package (controller, power bar, probes) for $700. I remember it being cheaper but I couldn't remember the exact price or whether it was just the head unit or the entire package. I do remember looking at it at the time, as I was considering buying one it it being close to $700.
Whole package - head, power bar, and probes.

Screenshot_20190205-234325.png


I was wrong though, it was $375. I bought an extra powerbar for $149.
 

FirstContact

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The $375 price did not include probes unless you’re counting just the temp probe. pH, ORP, conductivity, were separate. Almost everybody bought an additional power bar. Most people don’t run a controller with only 6 outlets! $700 is a lot closer to accurate. Plus, the first units were wired wrong. Cost an additional $80 about to ship back and have it wired correctly.

Also, this project is much older than 2013. The earliest reference I can find now is 2010, but I’m sure they were pushing it earlier. Just can’t find it right now.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/6/aafeature

Neptune is a reliable company. I had an Apex classic but for now went with GHL Profilux 4 for my own reasons based on the ORP probes and calibration.
 
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DarkSky

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Mine came with a pH probe in the box. Maybe I got lucky. Also, I never had to send mine back in for rewiring. I must have gotten it at the tail end of that experience, though I do remember people on the forums having to do it.
 

Sleepydoc

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The $375 price did not include probes unless you’re counting just the temp probe. pH, ORP, conductivity, were separate. Almost everybody bought an additional power bar. Most people don’t run a controller with only 6 outlets! $700 is a lot closer to accurate. Plus, the first units were wired wrong. Cost an additional $80 about to ship back and have it wired correctly.

Also, this project is much older than 2013. The earliest reference I can find now is 2010, but I’m sure they were pushing it earlier. Just can’t find it right now.

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/6/aafeature

Neptune is a reliable company. I had an Apex classic but for now went with GHL Profilux 4 for my own reasons based on the ORP probes and calibration.
Yeah, I just found this post...maybe we can say it took them 6-7 years?

Honestly, the delay from any announcement to actually shipping a device is not really relevant, IMO. Plenty of companies [marketing departments] make premature announcements and then take longer than expected to release the final product or never release it at all. (Dilbert portrays marketing pretty accurately!) Neptune did something similar to this with the COR pumps. They announced it 9/2015, shipped it to insiders 8/2017 and shipped them the first week of Jan, 2018. I think all the other issues/problems surrounding Vertex's handling of the Cerebra debacle are what people take umbrage with.
 

rushbattle

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Yeah, I just found this post...maybe we can say it took them 6-7 years?

Honestly, the delay from any announcement to actually shipping a device is not really relevant, IMO. Plenty of companies [marketing departments] make premature announcements and then take longer than expected to release the final product or never release it at all. (Dilbert portrays marketing pretty accurately!) Neptune did something similar to this with the COR pumps. They announced it 9/2015, shipped it to insiders 8/2017 and shipped them the first week of Jan, 2018. I think all the other issues/problems surrounding Vertex's handling of the Cerebra debacle are what people take umbrage with.
Mid-May 2010. It's gonna be 9 years.

https://reefbuilders.com/2010/05/13/vertex-cerebra-hd-touchscreen-aquarium-controller-apps/

I don't care about the timeframe getting to market. Some companies are better at that than others. What burns me up is lying to customers. You can expect some range of timelines based on the company, but I think every consumer should expect and demand honesty and not blatantly obvious lies.
 

DarkSky

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That's what happens when you have marketing and business set timelines and dates!

#SoftwareEngineers4Life
 

FirstContact

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Yeah, I just found this post...maybe we can say it took them 6-7 years?

Honestly, the delay from any announcement to actually shipping a device is not really relevant, IMO. Plenty of companies [marketing departments] make premature announcements and then take longer than expected to release the final product or never release it at all. (Dilbert portrays marketing pretty accurately!) Neptune did something similar to this with the COR pumps. They announced it 9/2015, shipped it to insiders 8/2017 and shipped them the first week of Jan, 2018. I think all the other issues/problems surrounding Vertex's handling of the Cerebra debacle are what people take umbrage with.
Yes this is so true. It would have been much better for Vertex to say sorry guys this is going to take a few more years than expected than to continually lie. Additional, it’s my belief based on forum posts that Vertex knew it was going to have to drop V1 for V7 before they started selling V1. Essentially a cash grab to a Kickstarter program for V7. I just wanted to point out the 2010 announcement since you wrote 2013. Either way, they’ve certainly had plenty of time compared to the history of announcements on their forums and websites. Everyone is in agreement that this has and is being handled horribly except for Vertex as their pattern of misinformation and deception to those that bought in and through their marketing and announcements to the general public through websites never ceases to change.
 
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BZOFIQ

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.... I believe, products are preannounced to introduce doubt so that customers dont invest in competing systems.

....
This comment (at link below) validates my earlier statement....you don't have to be a marketing guru to figure these things out.

Trident FAQ

I quote: "Well, based on hearing about it last year I made sure to purchase all apex equip in anticipation. Dos, ddr, controller, core pump, lunar, so the invention set off a purchase of 2k worth of equipment already :)"
 

Sleepydoc

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This comment (at link below) validates my earlier statement....you don't have to be a marketing guru to figure these things out.

Trident FAQ

I quote: "Well, based on hearing about it last year I made sure to purchase all apex equip in anticipation. Dos, ddr, controller, core pump, lunar, so the invention set off a purchase of 2k worth of equipment already :)"
Management: "When will it be ready?"
Engineering: "Well, assuming everything goes perfectly, 6 months. Realistically more like 9-12 months."
Management: "Great - 4-5 months!"
Marketing: "Expect to see it on shelves in 3-4 months!"
Engineering: "&*&$%& marketing!"

Edit - Actually, it's probably something closer to:

Marketing: "We'll annouce this for Christmas."
Management: "Sounds great!"
Management (to engineering): "We announced it for Christmas"
Engineering: "You did what? It's August and we haven't even started beta testing!"
 

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