What is the recommended daily dose of distilled vinager?

[sixty_reefer]

I can advise on carbon dosing for other purposes, such as growing bacteria as filter feeder food or reducing nutrients, but I have no idea what dose, if any, is optimal in dealing with dinos.

The author of the article believes that is chemical warfare produced by the bacteria that minimise and eventually eradicate the dinoflagellates. My take on it is slightly different

 

[Spare time]

I'd be nervous adding tons of bacteria and organic carbon into a tank at night given that you are priming yourself for a potential bacterial bloom or a significant drop in oxygen.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'm dosing at night to battle dinos, not lower nutrients, if that makes a difference. Water volume is 27 gallons.

Vinegar is actually feeding dinos- Stop ASAP.
Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

 

[sixty_reefer]

Vinegar is actually feeding dinos- Stop ASAP.
Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15% IF you have light dependant corals) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

How does dinoflagellates (algae) use organic carbon? You are the second person on this thread that affirmed this. Starting to get curious on the thought behind it?

 

[vetteguy53081]

How does dinoflagellates (algae) use organic carbon? You are the second person on this thread that affirmed this. Starting to get curious on the thought behind it?

Dinoflaggellates do best and thrive in a low nutrient environment and when you perform carbon dosing, you are in essence supporting dino as Carbon dosing reduces available nutrients in the water

 

[Miami Reef]

This is the authors DIY carbon dose from the dino article:

Hi Dr. Jim, the DIY organic carbon additive is made of:

225 ml of vodka (40%)
25 ml of white vinegar
1 tea spoon of brown sugar

Dose is 0,5 ml/100 liters of aquarium water per day

Hope it helps

Your tank is 27gal x 3.785L/1gal = 102L

102L/100L x .5mL =0.51mL of the DIY carbon mix per day.

 

[Rmckoy]

I can advise on carbon dosing for other purposes, such as growing bacteria as filter feeder food or reducing nutrients, but I have no idea what dose, if any, is optimal in dealing with dinos.

I would want to agree with you seeing as carbon dosing has always been used to lower nutrients which if dosed too long can lead to the cause of Dinos .

 

[Rmckoy]

This is the authors DIY carbon dose from the dino article:


Your tank is 27gal x 3.785L/1gal = 102L

102L/100L x .5mL =0.51mL of the DIY carbon mix per day.

If someone already has Dino which used to be caused by no nutrients I wouldn’t think dosing carbon would be effective at helping but would make things worse .
Very Interesting article

 

[Spare time]

I like how this thread is again highlighting that no one knows what causes dino blooms in marine aquariums , nor does anyone know what causes the bloom to dissapate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Dinoflaggellates do best and thrive in a low nutrient environment and when you perform carbon dosing, you are in essence supporting dino as Carbon dosing reduces available nutrients in the water

That’s not a reason for carbon dosing to encourage dinoflagellates growth.
Yes I believe that by now most will agree that dinoflagellates tend to bloom in low to zero nitrates and phosphates system. Although algae tends to get they’re carbon from atmospheric co2 and not from dissolved organic carbon.
most folks disregard that a system depleted from nitrates and phosphates still has plenty of nutrients to offer to nuisance including ammonia one of the most favourable source of nitrogen for algae. Ammonia becomes available due to the deficiency in nutrients that once was taken care by heterotrophic bacteria. The carbon dosing treatment seems to be effective due to the growth in bacteria in the system that converts ammonia to nitrates, sugar based solutions seem to be more effective due to being effective at exploding the nitrifying bacteria.

 

[Rmckoy]

Here is a older article which gives many different carbon sources along with a dosing schedule for each https://reefstable.com/blog/carbon-dosing-reef-tank/

 

[jabberwock]

For me, if I drink a one once shot of Bragg's organic red wine vinegar the night before I go to the woods, it keeps the ticks and chiggers off of me 100%. Your body chemistry may vary...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The author of the article believes that is chemical warfare produced by the bacteria that minimise and eventually eradicate the dinoflagellates. My take on it is slightly different

Competition for space or trace elements is plausible, but dinos can also possibly consume organics and thrive. That’s why I’m not a fan of the idea without a lot of evidence that it generally works.

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and D/L-Amino acid compositions​

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and d/l-Amino acid compositions - Scientific Reports

We measured the concentrations of dissolved inorganic and organic nutrients, dissolved organic carbon (DOC), total hydrolyzable amino acids (THAA), fluorescent dissolved organic matter (FDOM), phytoplankton pigments, and δ13C-DOC during the summer of 2019 in the harmful dinoflagellate bloom...

www.nature.com

 

[sixty_reefer]

Competition for space or trace elements is plausible, but dinos can also possibly consume organics and thrive. That’s why I’m not a fan of the idea without a lot of evidence that it generally works.

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and D/L-Amino acid compositions​

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and d/l-Amino acid compositions - Scientific Reports

We measured the concentrations of dissolved inorganic and organic nutrients, dissolved organic carbon (DOC), total hydrolyzable amino acids (THAA), fluorescent dissolved organic matter (FDOM), phytoplankton pigments, and δ13C-DOC during the summer of 2019 in the harmful dinoflagellate bloom...

www.nature.com

My current thoughts are somehow in-line with some of your reservations.
My understanding is that phytoplankton such as dinoflagellates will prefer ammonia to nitrates as a main source of energy along with potassium, phosphates and trace elements all this types of nutrients become more available in a system during a quick limitation in nitrates and phosphates, I believe it may be connected to the limitations that heterotrophic bacteria suffers in the absence of nitrate and phosphate there is many species of heterotrophic bacteria in our systems that are responsible for oxidise ammonia along with nitrifying autotrophic bacteria.
many folks including me were fairly successful in eradicating dinoflagellates in the past by simply correcting the nitrates or phosphates this method doesn’t seems perfect just yet although it makes sense to estimating the growth of nitrifying heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria using different forms of dissolved organic carbon starving the dinoflagellates by limiting ammonia in a system.
some folks will also have dinoflagellates appear with higher nitrates and phosphates although in those circumstances appears that the nutrient keep rising that is normally a sign that a the nitrifying heterotrophic population may be limited by dissolved organic carbon.
heterotrophic bacteria limitation always seem to be at the beginning of all dinoflagellates issues reported and in a way understanding those limitations may become a way to eradicate nuisances from our systems in a more efficient way in my understanding.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I like how this thread is again highlighting that no one knows what causes dino blooms in marine aquariums , nor does anyone know what causes the bloom to dissapate.

I disagree, I have never considered dinoflagellates to be a issue and I’ve dealt with them enough times.

 

[Spare time]

I disagree, I have never considered dinoflagellates to be a issue and I’ve dealt with them enough times.

You have delt with them, but you don't truly know what causes them nor what leads to them going away. Its all just anecdotal and at most correlational. The strongest correlation on here seems to be 0.00 phosphates and dinos, but this isn't universal and the strength of said correlation is unknown (if there truly is any at all). No one has quality experimental data (statistically analyzed) on this topic, and all evidence we have on here is simply an observation of a phenomenon. Your statement of "I have never considered dinoflagellates to be an issue" is your experience, which says nothing about others experience with dinos because again, all we know of is the phenomena. It is important to be clear on defining what we know and why/how we know something. Many can say what they "know," but "how" they know is what needs to be better criticized on this forum, as anyone can claim that dinos are caused by x and are dissipated by y. This is arguably the main difference between forum science and professional science, as this forum tends to lack critical analysis of how people know something to be.

 

[sixty_reefer]

You have delt with them, but you don't truly know what causes them nor what leads to them going away. Its all just anecdotal and at most correlational. The strongest correlation on here seems to be 0.00 phosphates and dinos, but this isn't universal and the strength of said correlation is unknown (if there truly is any at all). No one has quality experimental data (statistically analyzed) on this topic, and all evidence we have on here is simply an observation of a phenomenon. Your statement of "I have never considered dinoflagellates to be an issue" is your experience, which says nothing about others experience with dinos because again, all we know of is the phenomena. It is important to be clear on defining what we know and why/how we know something. Many can say what they "know," but "how" they know is what needs to be better criticized on this forum, as anyone can claim that dinos are caused by x and are dissipated by y. This is arguably the main difference between forum science and professional science, as this forum tends to lack critical analysis of how people know something to be.

I believe what we have here is evolution, if we look back 8-10 years only a small handful of reefers made the connection of zero nutrients with dinoflagellates, today that aspect is fairly known although many still ignore it by just being lucky and not have the cell of dinoflagellates present under those circumstances. ( yes to have dinoflagellates blooming we first need to have enough cells present in the system) same as white spot on fish many go though a lot of work to try and eliminate them from their system through quarantine, not sure if you are aware but a great part off folks in the hobby don’t go though the same process with rock and coral as they do for fish, folks that do that will never have issues in low nutrient environments as the cell is not present to bloom they may have different issues like GHA that is another nuisance that blooms easily with ammonia levels rising.
during the nitrates cycle we often see a system hitting zero nutrients although we don’t see a dinoflagellates bloom for that same reason, the system was started sterile and there is no cell to bloom present the same can’t be said after introducing the first few corals we often observe dinoflagellates blooms in new tanks that can’t manage ammonia yet is fairly uncommon to observe dinoflagellates in more mature systems that manage ammonia efficiently

in addition if you look at aquabiomics biodiversity rubble you can observe that there are often several species of dinoflagellates supplied in a small sample through the eDNA testing supplied introduction a cell this days into a system seems fairly easy, specially as folks will blindly add anything to they’re system that promises diversity, with that nuisance will always find a way of the conditions are right

regarding eradicating dinoflagellates folks tend to use today a set guidelines for random ingredients that tend to work somehow without knowing what’s happening at the nutrient level a small example is the use of live phytoplankton and mb7

live phytoplankton will compete for ammonia wile still alive in the system and once it perish the carbohydrates will stimulate bacteria that oxidises ammonia in the case of mb7 like other bacteria cleaning products it contains dissolved organic carbon that again stimulate the growth of ammonia oxidising bacteria, in the case of dinoflagellates, Cyanobacteria and nuisance algae all can be explained and resolved with reef tank nutrition, we just need to understand further how nutrients impact the overall biodiversity of a reef.

 

[taricha]

Currently dosing AFR, MB Clean, Waste Away, and Sodium Silicate.

Heh.
AFR is a carbon dose
WA is a carbon dose
Vinegar is a carbon dose
(Dunno about MB Clean).
Not that this is a bad combo, just struck me as funny.
Just be careful with the night time dosage, watch O2 or ensure aeration.

 

[rennjidk]

Heh.
AFR is a carbon dose
WA is a carbon dose
Vinegar is a carbon dose
(Dunno about MB Clean).
Not that this is a bad combo, just struck me as funny.
Just be careful with the night time dosage, watch O2 or ensure aeration.

I have lots of aeration and I'm skimming on the wet side

 

[rennjidk]

Competition for space or trace elements is plausible, but dinos can also possibly consume organics and thrive. That’s why I’m not a fan of the idea without a lot of evidence that it generally works.

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and D/L-Amino acid compositions​

Origins and characteristics of dissolved organic matter fueling harmful dinoflagellate blooms revealed by δ13C and d/l-Amino acid compositions - Scientific Reports

We measured the concentrations of dissolved inorganic and organic nutrients, dissolved organic carbon (DOC), total hydrolyzable amino acids (THAA), fluorescent dissolved organic matter (FDOM), phytoplankton pigments, and δ13C-DOC during the summer of 2019 in the harmful dinoflagellate bloom...

www.nature.com

What would you personally recommend? I've read every dino thread. So far I've tried:

3 & 5 day blackout (including Vette's method)
NO3 dosing
silicate dosing
manual removal
reduced lighting
bacterial dosing
UV sterilization

The nightly carbon dosing is a last resort for me before resorting to algaecide, as the dinos have killed all but a few zoa colonies, which I have to blow clean several times a day to keep alive.