What is your opinion of advice from WetWebMedia regarding fish?

[Zionas]

Hi all, many of us were very sad to hear about Bob Fenner’s passing (RIP), but for those of you who have gotten advice regarding fish on WetWebMedia from either Bob or a staff member regarding fish husbandry and fish selection, how has their advice been for you?

For example, recently I was in touch with one of their staff regarding the pairing of Yellow Watchman Gobies and I got conflicting advice from him compared to what I’ve read here. The question was regarding putting a YWG, Flame Hawk and Long Nose Hawk in the same tank. Both my fellow reefers here and WWM agree that the combo works just fine as long as the YWG is established first.

However, regarding the pairing of Yellow Watchman Gobies is where I’ve gotten conflicting advice. WWM has warned me against introducing two unless they’re already a known mated pair, but my fellow reefers here say that get two younger ones and they’ll eventually become a pair without much of a hassle. I’m not sure what to do, forgive me.

I’ve already decided that I’m getting a Yellow Eye Kole as my Bristletooth Tang, but regarding another Cthenochaetus, the Tomini, Bob Fenner thinks it’s the most difficult of the genus to take care of but people here don’t think it’s harder than any other Bristletooth Tang. Again unrelated to my own tank, but regarding fish like the Apolemichthys genus of Angelfish, almost everywhere I’ve seen considers one species, the Xanthurus Cream, an all-round easy angelfish to care for but Bob, in his book (which I ordered recently), groups it as not suitable for the average aquarist along with the others in its genus.

WWM also ranks the hardiness of the Flame Angelfish above that of the Coral Beauty.

There are also size discrepancies between some species of fish when comparing WWM and other sites like LiveAquaria. For example, the Lamarck’s Angelfish according to WWM gets to 7 inches, the Spotbreast 6 inches, but according to LA the Lamarck’s gets to 9 inches and the Spotbreast also gets to 9 inches (most other sources say 7 though). The Yellow Eye Kole Tang according to WWM tops out at 6 inches but LA says seven. The Longfin Bannerfish (H. Acuminatus) WWM says tops out at 10 inches (though the guy who answered my questions recently says they usually top out at around 8) but LA says 8.5, and Blue Zoo seems to agree with WWM.

Navigating through so many different opinions surely is difficult. For my fellow reefers here who have gotten answers from WWM regarding fish species and husbandry, have you found their answers and experiences consistent with your fellow reefers here on R2R? Do you find them reliable?

Thanks.


Regarding the dietary habits of the Cthenochaetus Tangs:

Bob thinks they, at least the Yellow Eye Kole, are just as easy to feed as the Zebrasoma Tangs.

The guy who answered my questions recently says they can be a bit finicky.

My fellow reefers here have divided opinions on how quickly and how well they eat captive fare.

 

[Doctorgori]

Wow, that site is still running? This is a interesting question by the OP .... IME the “status quo” and popular opinion has been wrong before regarding a few things.... I’d also be interested...

 

[Zionas]

Yeah apparently it still is, lol. I would love to hear people’s experiences with that site, especially their opinions on different fish.

I was reading their section on Centropyge (I also have Bob’s book) and he thinks the Flame and the pygmies are the hardiest in the genus. He thinks the Coral Beauty, Half Black etc. are “iffy” fish, sometimes good, sometimes bad depending on the shipment.

When it comes to butterflyfish he uses a 1,2,3 ranking system. I have his book on butterflies and the number of 1s (the ones with the highest survival rates) is very few.

He seems to have a contradictory view of live foods. Sometimes it seems as if he strongly encourages feeding them but in other articles he says it’s not a good idea.

Another example is the Singapore Angelfish. On the site he says “it’s among the better ones of its genus”, then in a Q and A with a user he says they’re difficult, in his book he says this species is 50/50. Some do well, others just wither away.

 

[Fishbird]

When it comes to the yellow watchman gobies, I would ask the people who've told you to get two small ones, if you could see videos of their pairs. Ask them how long they've had their fish, how big they were when they got the fish, how often do they spawn. Can you see videos of them spawning?

If you find *several* people who are happy to tell you about how to encourage spawning *and* they all say that you can get any two small ones and a pair will form, then you are probably good to go. As I have said several times here I see people confidently stating things as fact when there thread history strongly suggests that they actually don't have any first hand experience with whatever they are talking about. I've seen people say all sorts of things about how to pair fish based on what they know about clownfish but not all fish can transition sex (for example) and some fish start as male and go to female and some as female and go to male and some can move back and forth.

 

[Zionas]

Sounds like a good idea. I’ll ask around for videos. If they can’t provide them, guess I’ll just stick to one Yellow Watchman Goby.

 

[mort]

Everything you read anywhere is based on the opinion and experience of the author, no one is trying to deceive unless they have an ulterior motive. The problem with the Internet is it stores info forever and what may have been true once, may not be valid anymore, or current techniques may have moved that area of the hobby forward.

I haven't spent enough time reading wwm to form an opinion but I bet if you go back on any forum you will find far more widely divided views by far less qualified people. I had the pleasure of speaking to Bob once through an email conversation and when he didn't know the answer to my question, instead of fobbing me off, he generously forwarded it to a friend who's chosen field it was.
In defence of the site, what you have written was commonly believed about angels and you need to remember that shipping and husbandry techniques have moved on a long way in a short time.

Liveaquaria is famously wrong for a number of their descriptions, but other sites aren't infallible either. The descrepancy found in maximum sizes for instance is often just an opinion. If you look at fishbase it gives you the largest size of a wild specimen, showing the fishes maximum potential. A good example is a powderblue tang, most places sensibly put 8" because that's the kind of range to expect but the biggest ever found was 54cm.

To Answer the yellow watchman goby question, I believe I was one of the people who told you about pairing. You could ask me about a video to prove it but to tell you the truth I'm not fussed if you believe me or not. I'm not trying to be funny but most people give their opinions freely and they have nothing to gain from lying. The pairing of these gobies has been documented numerous times and there is plenty about them on the breeding forums or in books to justify what I wrote. I could send you a picture of two sitting side by side but this proves nothing really, only they were coexisting at that time. In truth it would be extremely hard to get a video of them breeding because they don't do it in the open and you'd be very lucky to even see eggs.

Again I'm not trying to be funny but you need to get in the habit of collecting opinions and then making your best judgement call. I know for one I'm not always right and I've learnt a lot about the hobby on my journey, most of which I couldn't learn from books or others.

 

[andrewey]

I think @mort absolutely nailed it in his response. If you're asking for a general trend, I trust Bob and wetwebmedia over the average responses I'll get from hobbyists on this site or others. Obviously no one is infallible and some of the information can be outdated or is no longer applicable. As long as you take any advice given with a grain of salt and understand what pieces of information are opinions and which are grounded in a systematic process, you'll be better able to synthesize opinions and make your best call. Part of the challenge, but also part of the fun is asking the exact question you're asking- why should I trust something I read online?

 

[Zionas]

Thanks for the great responses guys. I know it’s also a process of figuring things out as I go along. I believe it’s best to gather as much information as possible. Both you guys and WWM have been invaluable to me, extra props for all of your support and patience.

@mort I was in no way trying to doubt you, though it may have come off that way. I apologize for my use of language. If you’d be kind enough, I’d love to see a video of your pair of Yellow Watchman Gobies. Would be very helpful.

 

[ca1ore]

Most fish won't reach wild sizes anyhow, so just use as a guide. Agree that opinions, and practices, change over time. Captive bred/raised fish versus wild collecting and handling techniques will affect hardiness and survivability. Flame angels, for example, used to be much hardier than they are now - why …. who knows. I don't think that cthenochaetus tangs are necessarily harder to feed than zebras … it is just that many hobbyists fail to realize that their feeding behaviors are quite different. One genus is mostly detritovore/rock scrapers; the other more traditionally herbivore/water column feeder.

 

[User1]

Everyone is fallible. Having said that Mr. Fenner has the experience to back up his recommendations not to mention the books he wrote. His portal is old school but has a lot of useful information should those take the time to read through it. Dates back to modems and Usenet.

A lot of times when these questions are raised, on any forum, I often wonder if it is posted only to get the answer they are looking for rather than the one they don't, or honest one. Again, we all make mistakes and we all have our own personal bias. What sets hobbyists, and professionals, apart is that when we answer we try and remove the bias and while answering differently provide a reason.

Fenner was an amazing man and a huge asset to this hobby.

 

[mort]

@mort I was in no way trying to doubt you, though it may have come off that way. I apologize for my use of language. If you’d be kind enough, I’d love to see a video of your pair of Yellow Watchman Gobies. Would be very helpful.

Don't worry I didn't think you were but feel free to doubt me as a healthy dose of scepticism will make you a better fish keeper. If something doesn't sound right or you get conflicting opinions it gives you a perfect excuse to look into it further.

I don't have any videos of watchmen gobies and it's not a species I currently keep. My experience comes from owning them in the past and having run a store I had a couple of dozen customers who had pairs I made after they saw them in my display tank and wanted to keep them. I've done the same with many similar gobies that are also capable of sex change.

 

[Zionas]

No problem. Thanks for helping me all along, I really appreciate it. Depending on availability I may still give it a try.

 

[shred5]

Everyone is fallible. Having said that Mr. Fenner has the experience to back up his recommendations not to mention the books he wrote. His portal is old school but has a lot of useful information should those take the time to read through it. Dates back to modems and Usenet.

A lot of times when these questions are raised, on any forum, I often wonder if it is posted only to get the answer they are looking for rather than the one they don't, or honest one. Again, we all make mistakes and we all have our own personal bias. What sets hobbyists, and professionals, apart is that when we answer we try and remove the bias and while answering differently provide a reason.

Fenner was an amazing man and a huge asset to this hobby.

This has become a huge problem and chased allot of the experienced/advanced/authors etc away from the forums. It has become a why bother help someone when they are going to do something else anyway. You try teaching someone how to take care of a issue but they would rather listen to someone who says dump this in your tank. They learn nothing and end up with a bigger problem down the road and are out of the hobby. The turn over in the hobby is huge compared to what it used to be.

This also has led to the rise of private forums.


It is sad to me when people I knew 30 + years ago in the hobby are passing away like Bob this year and Albert Thiel last year.

 

[tripdad]

To the OP in regards to the Tomini tang. I have had one now for 3 years and it has been very easy to care for. He is very shy and skittish, only tang in the tank. Eats anything and picks all day long at glass and rockwork.

 

[andrewey]

@shred5 - I've thought a lot about this the last couple weeks and to be honest, I don't want to open the can of worms that is the difference between this reefing forum vs others. That being said, this forum is in many ways has many of the same challenges other social media platforms have (e.g. reddit, facebook, instagram). Often those that are the loudest or say statements that are what we want to hear rise to the top, while those that might give prudent advice or recognize the complexity of a dynamic ecosystem seldom gain the attention they deserve.

I'm in awe of the wealth of knowledge some members have and their generosity to share that with others. I'm even more in awe of the patience some members must posses to deal with individuals who lack that understanding delivering contradictory advice that is either baseless or dangerous. I don't know of a great way to solve the problem- how to retain these individuals that share their knowledge and at the same time, prevent burnout while dealing with situations that often evolve into confrontational discourse. I can only guess at the number of times I've caused someone to spit out their drink and think, "that's the dumbest thing I've ever read!"

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply that we don't have some of the best and brightest here patiently helping new and old alike, but I can't help but wonder how best to support these individuals while maintaining the needs of the site (open discourse).

 

[Zionas]

Awesome! They go for cheaper prices where I am than the Yellow Eye Kole but they’re not as frequently imported, the Yellow Eye Kole on the other hand is frequently imported and it’s from Hawaii so a plus.

 

[shred5]

@shred5 - I've thought a lot about this the last couple weeks and to be honest, I don't want to open the can of worms that is the difference between this reefing forum vs others. That being said, this forum is in many ways has many of the same challenges other social media platforms have (e.g. reddit, facebook, instagram). Often those that are the loudest or say statements that are what we want to hear rise to the top, while those that might give prudent advice or recognize the complexity of a dynamic ecosystem seldom gain the attention they deserve.

I'm in awe of the wealth of knowledge some members have and their generosity to share that with others. I'm even more in awe of the patience some members must posses to deal with individuals who lack that understanding delivering contradictory advice that is either baseless or dangerous. I don't know of a great way to solve the problem- how to retain these individuals that share their knowledge and at the same time, prevent burnout while dealing with situations that often evolve into confrontational discourse. I can only guess at the number of times I've caused someone to spit out their drink and think, "that's the dumbest thing I've ever read!"

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply that we don't have some of the best and brightest here patiently helping new and old alike, but I can't help but wonder how best to support these individuals while maintaining the needs of the site (open discourse).

Defiantly and very good post.
Some very smart experienced people on allot of the forums still.
This is a issue with allot of hobby forums not just the reef forums. Forums are still my favorite way of sharing info.
Another issue also is some forums are about post and post counts because they are business. Sometimes the quality of content suffers because of that.


Also to the original post and on old media. Allot of that stuff is still very valid today. I have a old video from Julian Sprung I was watching and it is on VHS and almost all the info is still solid.. Some of the technology has changed but still solid. Any beginner could watch it and follow it and do very well.

I used to use a forum before the internet called fishnet that had a ton of advanced/authors/experienced etc. people on it. A while back it was finally taken down.. I want to archive the info because it was history of the hobby. I am sure @Dana Riddle remembers it. He was on it allot.

 

[Zionas]

The majority of info on WWM seems to match up with the info I’ve been given regarding different stuff from my fellow aquarists here. It’s mostly minor differences in thought that I was curious about. I started my research here and on some random sites a while before I knew the existence of WWM. It’s always good IMO to gather as much info as possible and come to my own conclusions as I go along, and you guys have been great at assisting me. Will definitely keep you guys posted once I start my tank.

I’ve ordered a couple more books by Scott W. Michael to supplement my research, they’ll be arriving in a few days. Also I agree that with advances in the hobby, species previously considered difficult may not be considered overly difficult in the future, and I hope that is the direction this hobby takes. I do see the popularly kept species of today remaining popular long into the future, and IMO captive breeding must become the direction that hobby continues to take.