What makes a skimmer special

[Justin Hartmann]

Okay, I certainly don't want to start an argument here but have not found exactly what I am looking for in a few hours of searching. I'm sure I will take a small beating from this but I am curious. Everyone swears that you have to have a skimmer to have water quality and everything else is either a nitrate factory or does not do the job. Now I can see where this thought comes in and how skimmers are different as they function in a unique way. With that said, in every post that I see it states that skimmers remove organics from the tank, the only things ever quoted are food particles and waste. This makes sense that if these are removed the SOURCE of nitrates is removed before they convert. It cannot remove the nitrate itself if already converted. Again, I see that HOB filters, canisters etc keep these same particles in the flowing water through their bodies and if left can break down into nitrate and release into the water, where a skimmer removes it from flowing water back to the tank. Is this the reason they are called nitrate factories? Would keeping up on cleaning not reduce this effect.

As said before the only things that I see quoted are are waste and food, nothing special is being removed. So I guess my question is what are these skimmers doing that nothing else can? I can also see that there is better oxygen flow through the skimmer (depending on source air) and that can raise PH. Its honestly tempting just for the PH benefits running the skimmer air line to a CO2 scrubber and route to the outdoors. The last comment I have for now is the reason I ask. It is stated with nopox that you must skim when using this product. They say because of the reduced oxygen in the water when being dosed. I thought that I saw an article where skimmers do not really increase oxygen in the water all that much. I am no chemistry major and in fact am really not a fan as I am an engineer by training. However to me if the skimmer is removing organics from the water (carbon based molecules?) then is this not just removing what you are dosing in this case? I guess I am just trying to understand what the skimmer is removing exactly? Is this more molecular than everyone seems to state. What is it doing that nothing else can? Thanks for everyones time.

 

[ndrwater]

Your long winded question kinda requires a long winded answer. But... I will try to hit the main points of your questions.
A skimmer does indeed remove Dissolved organics. Better and more efficiently than do other types of filtration. A "good" skimmer as opposed to a "meh" skimmer really boils down to the pump. A good needle wheel or venturi make all the difference in getting a thick mass of very fine bubbles to make the skimmer actually skim. Contact time between the water flowing through the skimmer and the bubbles is key. In theory, a tall, fat skimmer would work better than a short skinny. That said the pump makes all the difference.
You can, and many do, have a very successful Reef tank without one. In today's reefing world, a skimmer is mentioned as an essential piece of equipment. That isn't necessarily true. But.... It does make life easier in maintaining the sometimes confusing chemistry required to maintain a Reef tank successfully long term. As I mentioned above, it removes Dissolved organics more efficiently than other methods.
As far as HOB or canisters being "Nitrate factories", I call schennagins. Technically ANY biological filter is in essence a Nitrate factory as a result of the nitrogen cycle in our tanks. No way to avoid it. Period.
The reason the term Nitrate factory is used at all is really two fold. One... New methods being used, and therefore manufacturers needing to sell new and improved products, and, the real biggie... Less informed reefers passing along misguided information.
The REAL issue with either HOB or canister filters is that they tend to be neglected or worse, changed and " cleaned thoroughly " when the sporadic maintenance is performed disrupting the beneficial bacteria that maintains the nitrogen cycle. Usually, leading to swings in water chemistry in a negative way. Again, as a result of infrequent maintenance, water changes are also neglected. When water changes are neglected, Nitrate accumulates to undesirable levels, causing people to believe that their filter is a Nitrate factory. The real problem is neglect, not the filter.
Hope that helps...

 

[Mr. Bill]

Your long winded question kinda requires a long winded answer. But... I will try to hit the main points of your questions.
A skimmer does indeed remove Dissolved organics. Better and more efficiently than do other types of filtration. A "good" skimmer as opposed to a "meh" skimmer really boils down to the pump. A good needle wheel or venturi make all the difference in getting a thick mass of very fine bubbles to make the skimmer actually skim. Contact time between the water flowing through the skimmer and the bubbles is key. In theory, a tall, fat skimmer would work better than a short skinny. That said the pump makes all the difference.
You can, and many do, have a very successful Reef tank without one. In today's reefing world, a skimmer is mentioned as an essential piece of equipment. That isn't necessarily true. But.... It does make life easier in maintaining the sometimes confusing chemistry required to maintain a Reef tank successfully long term. As I mentioned above, it removes Dissolved organics more efficiently than other methods.
As far as HOB or canisters being "Nitrate factories", I call schennagins. Technically ANY biological filter is in essence a Nitrate factory as a result of the nitrogen cycle in our tanks. No way to avoid it. Period.
The reason the term Nitrate factory is used at all is really two fold. One... New methods being used, and therefore manufacturers needing to sell new and improved products, and, the real biggie... Less informed reefers passing along misguided information.
The REAL issue with either HOB or canister filters is that they tend to be neglected or worse, changed and " cleaned thoroughly " when the sporadic maintenance is performed disrupting the beneficial bacteria that maintains the nitrogen cycle. Usually, leading to swings in water chemistry in a negative way. Again, as a result of infrequent maintenance, water changes are also neglected. When water changes are neglected, Nitrate accumulates to undesirable levels, causing people to believe that their filter is a Nitrate factory. The real problem is neglect, not the filter.
Hope that helps...

Agreed 100% with emphasis on DISSOLVED organics. No other mechanical filter removes liquid impurities. Chemical filtration, such as activated carbon, will absorb them, and it is even preferred by some over a skimmer for nano systems, but for larger tanks, a skimmer is the way to go as carbon requires frequent replacement. Also as stated, the problem with any mechanical filter being a Nitrate factory stems from neglect, not the filter.

 

[Justin Hartmann]

Yes, that makes sense. I can see that it could be more effective and efficiency for sure especially with neglected maint. Im sorry for the long winded question, I just did not want the basic answers that I have seen, I am looking for more detail I guess. With the vast amount of different substances going on in our reefs I just really do not know what dissolved organics is referring to. I understand the waste and food particles. I just read a lot about people adding certain chemicals in their tanks and the skimmer "goes crazy" this leads me to believe that something more on the molecular level is being removed, which is great. I am just interested in more detail than organics. I admit I should know what that means but I don't to the extent that makes me happy haha. I see that it will not remove nitrates, phosphates and those things, but I guess it will remove amino acids, sugars, fats etc. In this case is this not removing a bunch of stuff that I would be dosing with nopox? Maybe this cannot be answered with the detail that I am curious about.

 

[Justin Hartmann]

Okay awesome, that is more what I am looking for, so carbon will do kind of the same job. I though I was missing something when they said that the water must be skimmed in order to run the nopox, that is the main reason I am asking. To me carbon would be taking out pretty close to the same thing as the skimmer would so I did not understand why a skimmer was needed. It may exhaust a lot faster and I would go through it fast which makes sense.

 

[ndrwater]

Without a detailed chemistry lesson, "dissolved organics" will have to do...
Another real issue in this hobby is people looking for the easy way out, or, more often, a magic potion in a fancy bottle touting miraculous results as long as you dose the magic beans regularly.
A Reef tank is really simple, with a lot of complex chemistry and biological function going on.
Because I have nothing to sell, I can sum it up this way..
Do regular water changes using high purity water (RODI) with a good quality salt
Get compatible fish, corals, inverts
Feed em what they eat.
It really IS that simple, but there are a zillion ways to skin a Reef. Some more complex and expensive than others, but the basics remain the same.

 

[Mr. Bill]

Okay awesome, that is more what I am looking for, so carbon will do kind of the same job. I though I was missing something when they said that the water must be skimmed in order to run the nopox, that is the main reason I am asking. To me carbon would be taking out pretty close to the same thing as the skimmer would so I did not understand why a skimmer was needed. It may exhaust a lot faster and I would go through it fast which makes sense.

With Nopox, the skimmer is needed for aeration. Contrary to anything else you have read, yes a skimmer does improve dissolved O2 levels.

 

[ndrwater]

Yes^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Justin Hartmann]

Fair enough, I have taken a biology class so I kind of understand, I know basic structure of things like fats, amino acids, proteins, DNA etc. No need to get into things that much, I don't want to waste your time. I am just having a smaller algae and nitrate problem that I cannot figure out as of yet. I do a 20% water change every other Thursday but the nitrates will not drop. Within a day of the change they are all the way back to 40. I agree that to many answers are chemicals, I just want to try nopox so I can maybe get a handle on the algae and nitrates so when I stop using it I can see what happens and analyze a little better what is going on. I will be buying a skimmer tonight, I trust your information and see benefits. May just run that for a month or two and keep up what I am doing and see if that changes things with no dosing.

 

[Justin Hartmann]

Oh and thanks so much for the help guys!! I did not mean this to be an attack on skimmers at all (I am going to get one i fact). I just have that engineer brain where I want to fully understand what is happening on a tiny scale, unfortunately chemistry is my nemesis, before I use something. At any rate thanks again, I know I can can be a pain in the butt. I hope I did not come across attacking it to much.

 

[ndrwater]

Fair enough, I have taken a biology class so I kind of understand, I know basic structure of things like fats, amino acids, proteins, DNA etc. No need to get into things that much, I don't want to waste your time. I am just having a smaller algae and nitrate problem that I cannot figure out as of yet. I do a 20% water change every other Thursday but the nitrates will not drop. Within a day of the change they are all the way back to 40. I agree that to many answers are chemicals, I just want to try nopox so I can maybe get a handle on the algae and nitrates so when I stop using it I can see what happens and analyze a little better what is going on. I will be buying a skimmer tonight, I trust your information and see benefits. May just run that for a month or two and keep up what I am doing and see if that changes things with no dosing.

Good for you on getting a skimmer. I think you will see tangible benefits. As far as your Nitrate issue, I have a simple answer. More frequent water changes. Weekly, or even twice weekly until you get to a manageable Nitrate level. That said, look to the root of the problem. Are you over feeding? Adding "magic beans" that could be a contributing factor?
Hate to sound glib, but as I stated before, it really IS simple, but I will expand on my previous answer in regards to the how to's.
If you have an elevated level of Nitrate, then you aren't doing enough water changes. Yes, there are other ways of reducing Nitrate. NopoX and Bio pellets work, but for a reason. That reason is you are now introducing and sustaining a different bacterial culture to consume nitrates. My issue has been and will always be, that once you stop maintaining that bacterial culture, only bad things happen. The simplest, and most effective way to maintain Nitrate is with regular water changes.
Now, there is a LOT more to this, and other effective ways to reduce Nitrate such as copious amounts of live rock, but that is a dissertation for another day..

 

[ndrwater]

Oh and thanks so much for the help guys!! I did not mean this to be an attack on skimmers at all (I am going to get one i fact). I just have that engineer brain where I want to fully understand what is happening on a tiny scale, unfortunately chemistry is my nemesis, before I use something. At any rate thanks again, I know I can can be a pain in the butt. I hope I did not come across attacking it to much.

I know I am glad to help, and this forum is filled with reefers who would help in a heartbeat as well.
Asking questions, and questioning the answers is the best way to evolve this hobby and your own knowledge base. Keep it up!!

 

[Mr. Bill]

Exactly^^^^^. Cheers, and good luck.

 

[Justin Hartmann]

I agree with that 100% it is a mask and they have you buying that bacteria forever until you solve the real issue. The moment you stop it is going to have issues, unless you somehow fixed the real issue along the way, then you just go back to buying more chemicals, its a good hook. I have cut back on feeding as I think that did contribute a little to the issue, I did need to tell the girl that they just seem like they are always hungry they really are not. May switch to an every other day feeding. I will throw on the skimmer and try weekly water changes for a few months to see how that goes. Could try twice a week for a few weeks to jump start things at first. I did test my freshwater the other day and it does not look like the problem is there. Thanks for the tips! I was playing with the idea of creating a small refugium as well.

 

[mcarroll]

It's an airstone in a box so it doesn't make a huge mess. Aeration is beneficial.

A side effect of aerating saltwater is that muck sticks to the bubbles so it's messy.....supposedly that's how the skimmer was born – to contain the bubble mess the traditional UGF makes. Or something like that.

What makes a skimmer special to me is how easy it is to clean.

 

[Justin Hartmann]

It's an airstone in a box so it doesn't make a huge mess. Aeration is beneficial.

A side effect of aerating saltwater is that muck sticks to the bubbles so it's messy.....supposedly that's how the skimmer was born – to contain the bubble mess the traditional UGF makes. Or something like that.

What makes a skimmer special to me is how easy it is to clean.

I am sure I will love how easy it is to clean the collection cup, actually looking forward to that!! I guess with the topic of cleaning I see that sometimes the large chunks can get caught in the top of the cone shape (top of the body where the bubble madness is). Will this getting a fair amount of "muck" (good word) getting caught on the walls create a small issue breaking down and releasing nitrate eventually? How often would you break down the body and clean that out?

 

[Mr. Bill]

As often as needed. When you see a film developing, it's time. It really isn't that difficult with a quality skimmer.

 

[Mr. Bill]

It's an airstone in a box so it doesn't make a huge mess. Aeration is beneficial.

A side effect of aerating saltwater is that muck sticks to the bubbles so it's messy.....supposedly that's how the skimmer was born – to contain the bubble mess the traditional UGF makes. Or something like that.

What makes a skimmer special to me is how easy it is to clean.

LOL

Reminds me of my very first sw tank... a 20g with an airstone-powered UGF sporting twin lift tubes. With the nutrient-laden foam bubbles bursting at the surface, I had to scrape ALGAE off the bottom of the hood at least once per week. Despite all the pitfalls that came with the (lack of) knowledge and technology we had back then, I was still addicted.

 

[bif24701]

The pump makes a skimmer. New skimmers are available now with DC pumps which by all important factors is better than AC. The quality of the pump will determine the price.

If you plan to use mechanical filtration it must be removed/replaced before day 3 as organics will break down into NO3 PO4 thus defeat the purpose.

Bubbles is bubbles. Most any skimmer will do the job. You can compare skimmers head to head by looking at the water/air draw that determines how much work it will do regardless of the manufacturer's recommended tank size. Use that to compare prices.

One more thing!
An external skimmer (skimmer is completely external of sump, requires feed pump) of the same model will be slightly more effective than an internal. Internal (sits in sump, pump is outside of body) skimmer will be more effective than a space saver (pump within skimmer body) skimmer. This is all due to contact time. The more time the bubbles are in contact/mixing with the water the more effective it will be. Though it's not huge differences but it's there. Externals are the biggest because they have virtually unlimited space, space savers have less volume than internals because the pump is taking up some space.

A neck cleaner helps skimmer perform more effective. When a film develops in the neck it restricts bubbles from rising. Add a neck cleaner.

 

[bif24701]

It's an airstone in a box so it doesn't make a huge mess. Aeration is beneficial.

A side effect of aerating saltwater is that muck sticks to the bubbles so it's messy.....supposedly that's how the skimmer was born – to contain the bubble mess the traditional UGF makes. Or something like that.

What makes a skimmer special to me is how easy it is to clean.

I know this is a personal choice but I think the only real important part to keep clean is the and mixing body and can easily be cleaned when you remove the cup. A neck cleaner allows more time between cleanings. I clean mine every single week.