What would you do? New Reefer 900 with ich.

ID-Reefer

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Well... just finished setting up our Reefer 900 (243 gal system). Cycled great. Slowly added fish we thought were “clean” (had been QT at store in copper). Then powder blue and mimic Tang developed ich (of course) Have been trying to decide what to do for about 10 days. Started hospital tank today with cupramine. And have added the tangs. Not easy to catch but did. Other than a couple leathers and small Zoanthid frag no corals on the tank. That leaves a half dozen small seemingly healthy fish in the DT.

Well... just finished setting up our Reefer 900 (243 gal system). Cycled great. Slowly added fish we thought were “clean” (had been QT at store in copper). Then powder blue and mimic Tang developed ich (of course.). Have been trying to decide what to do for about 10 days. Started hospital tank today with cupramine. And have added the tangs. Not easy to catch but did. Other than a couple leathers and small Zoanthid frag no corals on the tank yet as it’s new. That leaves a half dozen small seemingly healthy fish in the DT.

I also have a reefer 170 (43 gal system) running which is more established and I assume has ich as well since I’ve moved snails back and forth. I’ve pulled out those fish from there and have them in the HT/QT as well even though no signs of ich. Have that tank going fallow as of today.

so...

1. do I buy install a UV sterilizer and try to manage in my big tank?

2. do I pull out my aqua scape and catch the remaining fish and run two 20 gal HT/QT tanks. And go fallow for 76 days.

3. Do I turn my reefer 170 into a hospital tank for all fish run the copper in that. Toss the live rock and sand out. Eventually turn it into a coral QT tank since it has a decent AI light after getting the copper out.

4. Other???

5. Sell everything for half of what I recently paid and go on a vacation. ;). Kidding.

So please give me your advice. Ask questions. Tell me what to do. I’ve missed this hobby after a long break and didn’t follow the first rule of “nothing ever good happens fast in a reef tank”.
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Sailfin11

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If your positive it's ich, than I would catch all the fish and go 3 months fallow. You probably won't need to take the aquascape out - just drain the tank low and you should be able to net most of the fish. You'll be able to focus on corals and inverts, just keep ghost feeding the tank to make sure the cycle keeps going.
 

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amazing setup. I have a 250g tank and my under tank setup looks exactly like your (if yours was hit with a sledgehammer, tornado and earthquake at the same time). great job.

i don't think i have ever been able to keep a powder blue just because of ich. I am a terrible quarantier and rely on looking for healthy fish (which mostly works).

I run UV 24/7 - i think it helps, but i doubt it would rid you of your issue. honestly - as much as it sucks, I would think pulling everything out of the tank and treating the fish and separately letting the ich die over 3 months is the safest bet. you could pull your corals out and treat the entire tank but i don't know how you'd ever be comfortable that you could reabsorb all the copper/meds from the sand and rocks.

i suppose its better you are dealing with this now, rather than a 3 year mature tank.

curious what others suggest.
 
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Hoping @vetteguy53081 might chime in (also a proud vette owner. As well as @Jay Hemdal to give some sound advice.

I have a lot invested into this as do others here posting. I want to do what is right and also smart. Sometimes I just wonder how plausible keeping a tank free of fish diseases is long term vs management. But I’m anxious to hear what others in my situation would do. Since I’ve never kept QT tanks in the past I’m not experienced with them. If everything goes into a QT it seems like there has to be multiple tanks running at a given time and bulk coral and fish buying has to happen so QT cycles cans be started. Seems like stocking a 200 gal could take years.

Again appreciate thoughts and advice!
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Hoping @vetteguy53081 might chime in (also a proud vette owner. As well as @Jay Hemdal to give some sound advice.

I have a lot invested into this as do others here posting. I want to do what is right and also smart. Sometimes I just wonder how plausible keeping a tank free of fish diseases is long term vs management. But I’m anxious to hear what others in my situation would do. Since I’ve never kept QT tanks in the past I’m not experienced with them. If everything goes into a QT it seems like there has to be multiple tanks running at a given time and bulk coral and fish buying has to happen so QT cycles cans be started. Seems like stocking a 200 gal could take years.

Again appreciate thoughts and advice!
Hi, tough issue!

Are you positive of your diagnosis? Seems like 10 days before starting treatment would have given the ich a real chance to build up....how many spots are you seeing on the tangs?

1. do I buy install a UV sterilizer and try to manage in my big tank? No - I am NOT a great proponent of using UV to control active disease, it just doesn't work unless you are processing water from one tank to another, as in a system.

2. do I pull out my aqua scape and catch the remaining fish and run two 20 gal HT/QT tanks. And go fallow for 76 days. I can't answer that, the issue is that the two 20 gallons are going to be pretty stressful to hold those fish for 76 days. That time period is oddly specific to R2R, and is definitely longer than is normally required. My understanding is that Humbelfish calculated that based on worse-case scenarios. Difficult to refute that because 76 days DOES work. If I tell you 50 days is fine and it doesn't work, then I'm in hot water! Safer to just keep saying 76 days(grin). Raising the temperature to 81 helps speed that along.

3. Do I turn my reefer 170 into a hospital tank for all fish run the copper in that. Toss the live rock and sand out. Eventually turn it into a coral QT tank since it has a decent AI light after getting the copper out. This would be my option, but then, I'm a fish guy 100%, so corals are secondary (grin). You might not need to toss the live rock. After treatment, you can test a piece of it by soaking it in low Ph tap water and testing for copper. If no copper leeches out, you can keep it. Old fashioned copper/citric acid copper treatments really trashed coral sand and LR, but the newer organically bound products are less likely to do that.

Jay
 

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You can buy some kid / dog pools for cheap to store your fish for the 76 day fallow period. That is what I did when I had to catch everyone. A shallow pool will offer lots of swimming space.
 

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Move the MPs to near the top of the water and have them get good churn there. Leave the cabinet doors open all of the time, until you can get solid air flow into the cabinet. Run your skimmer intake line to outside of the cabinet. Open the window next to the take regularly. If you are into buying equipment. Get a household CO2 monitor and put it near the tank to ensure CO2 doesn't get over 800ppm (this is an oxygen proxy). Alternatively you can get some Gyres these work well for the type of flow that I am suggesting.

If you haven't used live rock to start. Get some live rock for your tank. I recommend Live Rock and Reef. You can also you can get some live sand from Indo Pacific Sea Farms.

Powder blues and tangs in general IMO have huge oxygen requirements. They are particularly prone to infection in lower oxygen environments. Just as a thought I find flow from the bottom of the tank to the top of the tank to work best for increasing oxygenation. Unfortunately this is difficult to achieve with power heads. Gyres seem to come the closest.

My 2 cents :)
 
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Hi, tough issue!

Are you positive of your diagnosis? Seems like 10 days before starting treatment would have given the ich a real chance to build up....how many spots are you seeing on the tangs?
Jay, thank you for your response!
As to your question - no I’m not positive. Ick is my assumption. Sounds like velvet kills quickly and this tang has been battling for 10 days. Looking better one day then worse the next. Swimming, breathing and eating well. I’ll attach the best photos I can without having a light. I would say the spots are very numerous. The mimic tang is very early on. Noticing bumps more than spots as of yesterday.

to give some relief 3 days ago I gave the blue a ParaGuard dip and then yesterday a freshwater dip. The mimic a ParaGuard dip yesterday.
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Jay Hemdal

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I'm seeing some mucus on the PBT, but I'm not seeing classic ich spots on either fish - I suspect that is just an artifact of the photos though. I agree, velvet would not have lingered this long. Cupramine will take a few days to slow things down and a few more to really knock the ich back. The FW dips will buy you some time if the issue is something other than ich. I'd say continue on as you have been. I've not used Paraguard as a dip, do you have good instructions for doing that?

Jay
 
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I'm seeing some mucus on the PBT, but I'm not seeing classic ich spots on either fish - I suspect that is just an artifact of the photos though. I agree, velvet would not have lingered this long. Cupramine will take a few days to slow things down and a few more to really knock the ich back. The FW dips will buy you some time if the issue is something other than ich. I'd say continue on as you have been. I've not used Paraguard as a dip, do you have good instructions for doing that?

Jay
On the bottle instructions. 3 ml per gallon for an hour. Didn’t seem to help.
 

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Every one I know that gets a Powder Blue it happens . I wonder why?
IMO they need massive amounts of oxygen.

I had a powder blue a long time ago that got ick in a production system. I pulled him and put him in my high flow tank and the ick went away the next day. FWIW.
 
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So planning to go fallow in our reefer 900. Catch all fish and put in our reefer 170 which will become the HT/QT.

do we run a skimmer in the 170 QT tank?
Run lights at all? We will be using cupramine. Then probably medicate whatever cupramine doesn’t kill. Feed/water change as required.


For the fallow 900 tank do we run that skimmer? Do water changes etc? We have snails a shrimp and a couple leather corals so I assume we run like normal and just ghost feed to keep the bacteria fed. Grow and feed Chaeto and pods for the 76 days.
 

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So planning to go fallow in our reefer 900. Catch all fish and put in our reefer 170 which will become the HT/QT.

do we run a skimmer in the 170 QT tank?
Run lights at all? We will be using cupramine. Then probably medicate whatever cupramine doesn’t kill. Feed/water change as required.


For the fallow 900 tank do we run that skimmer? Do water changes etc? We have snails a shrimp and a couple leather corals so I assume we run like normal and just ghost feed to keep the bacteria fed. Grow and feed Chaeto and pods for the 76 days.
I would run skimmers on both tanks; extra aeration, co2 removal on the 170, and trapping particulate organic carbon on the 900 (ich tomites). I would do water changes on the 900 as usual. I use ambient lighting on QTs, enough for the fish to easily see their food, but not so much that algae control becomes a chore.

Jay
 

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Here's what I did in the past when I had to go fallow from ich:

- I used the opportunity to restock my CUC since they won't affect the fallow period as long as the full period is complete after their addition, plus when you ghost feed, you'll be feeding the CUC as well.
- I ran everything else like normal, did water changes to ensure nitrates and nutrients didn't build up, and went through the fallow period like normal.

Worked like a charm, no more ich, and my DT didn't get overrun by nuisance algae because my clean up crew was stacked.

Just my .02, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
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@HB AL Ultimately that's what I decided to do... may end up regretting it but im not convinced eradication/QT will work for me (not because its not the best method.. just not something I believe is the best method for me to do it 100% correctly). Ive instead chosen the management direction. Feeding clams Ive bought/prepared, live black worms, live white worms all supplemented with LRS/Rods. Going to run an oxydator and considering UV.

I believe building immunity is my direction. I still may run a separate tank just for a quasi observation QT to hopefully stem the potential of velvet etc. being introduced.
 

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If your positive it's ich, than I would catch all the fish and go 3 months fallow. You probably won't need to take the aquascape out - just drain the tank low and you should be able to net most of the fish. You'll be able to focus on corals and inverts, just keep ghost feeding the tank to make sure the cycle keeps going.
Currently doing this on my 750 due to brook. Sucks to work backwards but its better than dealing with it over and over.
 

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@HB AL Ultimately that's what I decided to do... may end up regretting it but im not convinced eradication/QT will work for me (not because its not the best method.. just not something I believe is the best method for me to do it 100% correctly). Ive instead chosen the management direction. Feeding clams Ive bought/prepared, live black worms, live white worms all supplemented with LRS/Rods. Going to run an oxydator and considering UV.

I believe building immunity is my direction. I still may run a separate tank just for a quasi observation QT to hopefully stem the potential of velvet etc. being introduced.
How is your tank doing with this approach? I've pulled all my fish twice over the years and rid them of ich and ran the display fallow for three months. since then I have always been strict on quarantining my fish and have been ich/parasite free for about five years now. Well recently I got a new blue jaw trigger and qt'd him for about two weeks with no signs of ich and put him in my display tank. What do you know a week after putting him in my tank he and my yellow tang now have ich. I'm trying to decide on having to buy a large spare tank to quarantine all my fish and do the fallow thing all over again or just trying to manage it and see what happens.

Thanks,
Brian
 
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How is your tank doing with this approach? I've pulled all my fish twice over the years and rid them of ich and ran the display fallow for three months. since then I have always been strict on quarantining my fish and have been ich/parasite free for about five years now. Well recently I got a new blue jaw trigger and qt'd him for about two weeks with no signs of ich and put him in my display tank. What do you know a week after putting him in my tank he and my yellow tang now have ich. I'm trying to decide on having to buy a large spare tank to quarantine all my fish and do the fallow thing all over again or just trying to manage it and see what happens.

Thanks,
Brian
Things are going well actually. I did eventually lose the mimic tang discussed above. Since that point I installed UV and an Oxydator. I try to feed very well, buy fresh clams and make my own frozen food. I also buy live black worms to feed and a couple times a week will feed pellets soaked in fish oil, amino acids, vitamins etc.

Beyond the mimic the only other fish Ive lost in this tank are a Midas Blenny for unknown reasons - never showed any spots just disappeared (or jumped and dog found him), a Lyretail Anthias who also disappeared and was getting picked on by the male Lyretail and a Mandarin who I could not get to eat.

I currently have 18 fish in the tank (I think). Only one currently shows any spots and its a blue hippo. He eats like a pig and Im hoping will develop an immunity. Other than two clowns, All other fish have never showed any spots and the two clowns that did have since been clean. All seem very healthy.

I am not running a QT for fish or coral. I do dip coral but fish go right in after acclamation. Only pest from coral that Im aware of has been Aiptasia that came in on one frag. I hit it with Aiptasia X immediately after noticing and haven't seen since but I suppose I could have it in the tank. I currently have somewhere around 200 coral frags (counting every little frag).

Doing a QT the correct way would no doubt be the best thing but even though I have the space and budget I don't think I would be able to stick to the strict methods required. I know I don't have time... Taking care of this tank is all I have time for. to set up and maintain a QT and QT Every snail. Every coral frag. QT for the required time and every time you add something to the QT the clock starts over. It doesn't work for me. I know I would eventually add something to soon like you did and Id end up where I'm already at. Obviously there are more parasites and diseases out there beyond Ich so I am also at risk for that. But then those also exist in the ocean. Tank has been wet for about 3.5 months, Hopefully my methods of UV, feeding well and maintaining stable parameters will continue to work. But I know I will always have Ich in the tank.
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