What's in the Hanna phosphate packet?

[Saintnovakai]

Hey guys. What's in that Hanna phosphate packet and can it be DIYed? That little powder can't be secret sauce.

 

[JimWelsh]

According to the SDS, it's > 75% potassium disulfate. But the magic comes from the other < 25%.

 

[Saintnovakai]

According to the SDS, it's > 75% potassium disulfate. But the magic comes from the other < 25%.

Ooooh. I see. Well it would be awesome to know that 25%. Would save tonnes of money on test reagents like switching to Geico.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

More than likely, Hanna's test uses a modification of the reagents published in the Standard Methods for the Examination of Water and Waste Water, which is the bible of lab-bench "wet testing" methods. That method uses ammonium molybdate to form a blue-colored phospho-molybdate complex. I made these reagents back in the day before hobbyist phosphate quantitation tests were readily available. You could do something similar if you chose - getting a copy of the SMEWW would be your first step.

However, you should recognize that there's not a lot of money to be saved, especially since the Hanna reagent packets are very inexpensive. If, on the other hand, your motivation is to learn some chemistry for the hobby aspect of it, that might be worth doing.

 

[Max!]

Ooooh. I see. Well it would be awesome to know that 25%. Would save tonnes of money on test reagents like switching to Geico.

This made me smile lol. Good luck Walter White!

 

[Saintnovakai]

More than likely, Hanna's test uses a modification of the reagents published in the Standard Methods for the Examination of Water and Waste Water, which is the bible of lab-bench "wet testing" methods. That method uses ammonium molybdate to form a blue-colored phospho-molybdate complex. I made these reagents back in the day before hobbyist phosphate quantitation tests were readily available. You could do something similar if you chose - getting a copy of the SMEWW would be your first step.

However, you should recognize that there's not a lot of money to be saved, especially since the Hanna reagent packets are very inexpensive. If, on the other hand, your motivation is to learn some chemistry for the hobby aspect of it, that might be worth doing.

Thanks for the post man. Well I guess I'm stuck importing reagents. I was just wondering if it were simple enough to import a bulk chemical or two and mix me up some then use a gram scale to portion my amount. Guess it's more bombtech than I expected. Lol.

One more question @Dkeller_nc , please. I asked if there was anyway of using this calcium phosphate I have laying around to dose Phosphate?

I asked in a post but everyone avoided it like Trumps ballot at the next election. Lol.

Wanna dose 1ml at 0.01ppm to a 55g tank. Could you humor me? Thanks.

 

[Saintnovakai]

This made me smile lol. Good luck Walter White!

We have our own Walter White. @Randy Holmes-Farley. Lol

Does that make @JimWelsh our Jesse? Lol

 

[taricha]

Here's a summary of the ascorbic acid method, which Hanna says their phosphorus checker is "based on"

NEMI Method Summary - 4500-P E

4500-P B. Ascorbic Acid Method

www.nemi.gov

Note that Hanna usually says "based on" meaning they changed it. The Hanna kit doesn't turn blue. Its end product is something that absorbs the 525nm green LED in the checker unit.
Beyond that I dunno.

 

[Saintnovakai]

Hmm. So just buy the reagent and keep my reefing butt quiet then. Gotcha. Lol

 

[Dan_P]

Hmm. So just buy the reagent and keep my reefing butt quiet then. Gotcha. Lol

Ooooh. I see. Well it would be awesome to know that 25%. Would save tonnes of money on test reagents like switching to Geico.

Switching to a 5 mL sample size will save you even more. Unfortunately, this will require you to very accurately split each packet in half, for example, by using a balance to weigh the powder (around 70 mg) and lifting the cuvette/vial up (I think about 17 mm).

 

[Saintnovakai]

Switching to a 5 mL sample size will save you even more. Unfortunately, this will require you to very accurately split each packet in half, for example, by using a balance to weigh the powder (around 70 mg) and lifting the cuvette/vial up (I think about 17 mm).

Lots of work. [emoji3064]... maybe... I'll just stop being a cheap butt and by the packets.[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]. Interesting idea though. Never thought of that.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Here's a summary of the ascorbic acid method, which Hanna says their phosphorus checker is "based on"

NEMI Method Summary - 4500-P E

4500-P B. Ascorbic Acid Method

www.nemi.gov

Note that Hanna usually says "based on" meaning they changed it. The Hanna kit doesn't turn blue. Its end product is something that absorbs the 525nm green LED in the checker unit.
Beyond that I dunno.

That's not actually accurate - the Hanna method does produce a blue color, which you can easily demonstrate for yourself. Simply add an inorganic phosphate source to seawater to get a reasonably high concentration in the >0.5 ppm range, and the blue color will be easily visible.

Now, having said that, I obviously don't know Hanna's exact method, so it's possible that they've altered the color complex chemistry, but that's fairly unlikely.

Rather unfortunately, I can't find my SEWW (Grrr... - been looking for it for weeks), but IIRC, all of the "wet chemistry" phosphate methods in sections 4500P.C, 4500P.D, and 4500P.E all rely on molybdenum to form a blue colored complex with phosphate.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

We have our own Walter White. @Randy Holmes-Farley. Lol

Does that make @JimWelsh our Jesse? Lol

Both Randy and I, as well as others in the Reef Chemistry section, have the education follow Walter White's career path. But pursuing healthcare chemistry instead has some advantages - one of which is staying out of Federal prison for the next 40 or so years.

 

[Dkeller_nc]

One more question @Dkeller_nc , please. I asked if there was anyway of using this calcium phosphate I have laying around to dose Phosphate?

I asked in a post but everyone avoided it like Trumps ballot at the next election. Lol.

Wanna dose 1ml at 0.01ppm to a 55g tank. Could you humor me? Thanks.

The probable reason folks avoided the question is that calcium phosphate has a very low solubility in water. "Calcium phosphate" could mean a few different compounds, but if it's Ca3(PO4)2 (tricalcium diphosphate), about 20 milligrams will dissolve in a liter of water. Definitely not ideal for dosing purposes.

I'd probably spread it on a garden or a landscaped area if you want to get rid of it - it will slowly break down in the soil and feed the plants.

 

[bluprntguy]

Here's a summary of the ascorbic acid method, which Hanna says their phosphorus checker is "based on"

NEMI Method Summary - 4500-P E

4500-P B. Ascorbic Acid Method

www.nemi.gov

Note that Hanna usually says "based on" meaning they changed it. The Hanna kit doesn't turn blue. Its end product is something that absorbs the 525nm green LED in the checker unit.
Beyond that I dunno.

I have noticed a blue tint with my ultra low phosphorous checker when my phosphates are higher. I can usually expect high phosphates just by looking at the vial before starting the timer.

 

[taricha]

That's not actually accurate - the Hanna method does produce a blue color,

Thanks for correction! I've never actually run a test with high enough P to generate an eye-detectable color.

 

[JimWelsh]

Here's a summary of the ascorbic acid method, which Hanna says their phosphorus checker is "based on"

NEMI Method Summary - 4500-P E

4500-P B. Ascorbic Acid Method

www.nemi.gov

Note that Hanna usually says "based on" meaning they changed it.

I suspect the biggest change is using a dry acid form.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Both Randy and I, as well as others in the Reef Chemistry section, have the education follow Walter White's career path. But pursuing healthcare chemistry instead has some advantages - one of which is staying out of Federal prison for the next 40 or so years.

Lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One more question @Dkeller_nc , please. I asked if there was anyway of using this calcium phosphate I have laying around to dose Phosphate?

I asked in a post but everyone avoided it like Trumps ballot at the next election. Lol.

Wanna dose 1ml at 0.01ppm to a 55g tank. Could you humor me? Thanks.

I already answered that in the original thread. Too insoluble.

 

[Saintnovakai]

Thanks guys. You bros are awesome. Also yeah, Randy got around to seeing the post about the CalPhos. Glad I got the confirmation from both you geniuses. Thanks guys.

On the note that we have been speaking about our own "Breaking frags" gang, it appears that the signature blue tint that we are interested in could be molybdenum. Lol.

Love you guys. You are truly appreciated.[emoji847]