Whats is the use of water changes when all paramaters are good?

Meatball_reef

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So I've been in this hobby for about 5 years, and have only been doing water changes once every 3 or 4 months. And today I was wondering - why even do those? All of my coral/anemones are doing great, algae is controlled by chaeto and skimming. Anything toxic will be pulled by carbon/phosgaurd. A lot of posts on here talk about changing water every week or few days, which makes me think that I am missing something? The only thing I can think of is trace elements, but if they are that important we should be dosing them anyway? Alk/Ca2+ are basically the only thing I ever dose. I am curious to hear your thoughts on this, I feel like I am overlooking something but can't put my finger on it.
 

Paul B

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You are actually changing more water than I do and some people can go for years without changing water. It is not as important as many people think.
After having said that I still think some water changes should be done.
Carbon and phosguard do not remove everything and I don't even use any of them because they may remove some trace elements that I do not want to remove.

There are many trace elements in sea water that we can't or don't want to test for and it is just easier to change the water.

Sea water has every element on Earth in it including sulphur, gold, Protactinium, Amino Acids, vanadium and we don't have the slightest idea if most of them are needed or not. Even things like Krypton and other elements I can't even spell.

Those trace elements I am sure are slowly removed by your carbon, corals and possibly the fish.

Elementmg/kg Cl = 19.00 ‰mg-atoms/L Cl = 19.00 ‰Atomic weight (1940)1/atomic weightAuthority
Chlorine18980548.3035.4570.02820
Sodium10561470.1522.9970.04348
Magnesium127253.5724.320.04112
Sulphur88428.2432.060.03119
Calcium40010.2440.080.02495
Potassium3809.9639.0960.02558
Bromine650.8379.9160.01251
Carbon282.3412.010.08326
Strontium130.1587.630.01141
Boron4.60.4310.820.09242
Silicon0.02 –4.00.0007 –0.1428.060.03564
Fluorine1.40.0719.000.05263
Nitrogen (comp.)0.01 –0.70.001 –0.0514.0080.07139
Aluminum0.50.0226.970.03708
Rubidium0.20.00285.480.01170
Lithium0.10.0146.9400.14409
Phosphorus0.001–0.100.00003–0.00330.980.03228
Barium0.050.0004137.360.00728
Iodine0.050.0004126.920.00788
Arsenic0.01–0.020.00015–0.000374.910.01335
Iron0.002–0.020.00003–0.000355.850.01791
Manganese0.001–0.010.00002–0.000254.930.01820
Copper0.001–0.010.00002–0.000263.570.01573
Zinc0.0050.0000865.380.01530Atkins (1936)
Lead0.0040.00002207.210.00483Boury (1938)
Selenium0.0040.0000578.960.01266Goldschmidt and Strock (1935)

― 177 ―​
Cesium
0.0020.00002132.910.00752Wattenberg (1938)
Uranium0.00150.00001238.070.00420Föyn et al (1939)
Molybdenum0.00050.00000595.950.01042Ernst and Hoermann (1936)
Thorium<0.0005<0.000002232.120.00431Föyn et al (1939)
Cerium0.00040.000003140.130.00714Goldschmidt (1937)
Silver0.00030.000003107.8800.00927Haber (1928)
Vanadium0.00030.00000650.950.01963Ernst and Hoermann (1936)
Lanthanum0.00030.000002138.920.00720Goldschmidt (1937)
Yttrium0.00030.00000388.920.01125Goldschmidt (1937)
Nickel0.00010.00000258.690.01704Ernst and Hoermann (1936)
Scandium0.000040.000000945.100.02217Goldschmidt (1937)
Mercury0.000030.0000001200.610.00498Goldschmidt (1937)
Gold0.0000060.00000002197.20.00507Haber (1928)
Radium0.2 – 3 × 10−100.8 – 12 × 10−13226.050.00442Evans, Kip, and Moberg (1938)
CadmiumFox and Ramage (1931)
ChromiumWebb (1937)
CobaltThompson and Robinson (1932)
TinThompson and Robinson (1932)
― 1​
 

Uncle99

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Corals utilize trace elements in their processes, water change replenishes these. Each may play only a small part and there are quite a few, but IMO, necessary for long term coral health and colour.
 

xxkenny90xx

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You are actually changing more water than I do and some people can go for years without changing water. It is not as important as many people think.
After having said that I still think some water changes should be done.
Carbon and phosguard do not remove everything and I don't even use any of them because they may remove some trace elements that I do not want to remove.

There are many trace elements in sea water that we can't or don't want to test for and it is just easier to change the water.

Sea water has every element on Earth in it including sulphur, gold, Protactinium, Amino Acids, vanadium and we don't have the slightest idea if most of them are needed or not. Even things like Krypton and other elements I can't even spell.

Those trace elements I am sure are slowly removed by your carbon, corals and possibly the fish.

Elementmg/kg Cl = 19.00 ‰mg-atoms/L Cl = 19.00 ‰Atomic weight (1940)1/atomic weightAuthority
Chlorine18980548.3035.4570.02820
Sodium10561470.1522.9970.04348
Magnesium127253.5724.320.04112
Sulphur88428.2432.060.03119
Calcium40010.2440.080.02495
Potassium3809.9639.0960.02558
Bromine650.8379.9160.01251
Carbon282.3412.010.08326
Strontium130.1587.630.01141
Boron4.60.4310.820.09242
Silicon0.02 –4.00.0007 –0.1428.060.03564
Fluorine1.40.0719.000.05263
Nitrogen (comp.)0.01 –0.70.001 –0.0514.0080.07139
Aluminum0.50.0226.970.03708
Rubidium0.20.00285.480.01170
Lithium0.10.0146.9400.14409
Phosphorus0.001–0.100.00003–0.00330.980.03228
Barium0.050.0004137.360.00728
Iodine0.050.0004126.920.00788
Arsenic0.01–0.020.00015–0.000374.910.01335
Iron0.002–0.020.00003–0.000355.850.01791
Manganese0.001–0.010.00002–0.000254.930.01820
Copper0.001–0.010.00002–0.000263.570.01573
Zinc0.0050.0000865.380.01530Atkins (1936)
Lead0.0040.00002207.210.00483Boury (1938)
Selenium0.0040.0000578.960.01266Goldschmidt and Strock (1935)

― 177 ―​
Cesium
0.0020.00002132.910.00752Wattenberg (1938)
Uranium0.00150.00001238.070.00420Föyn et al (1939)
Molybdenum0.00050.00000595.950.01042Ernst and Hoermann (1936)
Thorium<0.0005<0.000002232.120.00431Föyn et al (1939)
Cerium0.00040.000003140.130.00714Goldschmidt (1937)
Silver0.00030.000003107.8800.00927Haber (1928)
Vanadium0.00030.00000650.950.01963Ernst and Hoermann (1936)
Lanthanum0.00030.000002138.920.00720Goldschmidt (1937)
Yttrium0.00030.00000388.920.01125Goldschmidt (1937)
Nickel0.00010.00000258.690.01704Ernst and Hoermann (1936)
Scandium0.000040.000000945.100.02217Goldschmidt (1937)
Mercury0.000030.0000001200.610.00498Goldschmidt (1937)
Gold0.0000060.00000002197.20.00507Haber (1928)
Radium0.2 – 3 × 10−100.8 – 12 × 10−13226.050.00442Evans, Kip, and Moberg (1938)
CadmiumFox and Ramage (1931)
ChromiumWebb (1937)
CobaltThompson and Robinson (1932)
TinThompson and Robinson (1932)
― 1​

So whats your water change schedule Paul?
 

HB AL

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I wondered the same a few years ago and just stopped doing water changes for the last 2.5 years +. So far no livestock being corals or fish show any issues. Gonna continue on my current regimen for the last 2+ years. Heres a pic of my tank so you can see what my stock levels and conditions are.
20200705_103233.jpg
20200703_100228.jpg
 
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OP
Meatball_reef

Meatball_reef

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So would it be correct to assume that dosing something like replenish would do an adequate job at mitigating the trace element loss?

@HB AL - stunning.
 

X-37B

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Do some research on no scheduled water change systems. Glenn Fong is who I modeled my system after.
My 120 tank is one year old and has had no water changes.
Add water to offset skimmer loss and keep SG stable.
I run a carx with manmade media that keeps Alk and Ca stable.
I dose trace elements and run carbon in a small reactor, 1 1/4 cups.
Skimmer and filter sock on a bare bottom system.
All corals were grown from small frags.
I have 3 softball size colonies and over 50 corals at the present.
Most are sps with a couple lps.
It can be done but requires a plan to start and stick with.
I run NSW levels.
Po4 .02 No3 2.
Just took this pic.
20200705_131942.jpg
 

Spieg

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I also believe water changes can be a waste of resources. I only do a 20-25% water change a couple times a year (mainly to clean the sand bed). I would agree WC are important for folks new to reefing, or for newer tank setups that can be tricky to balance, or anyone unable/unwilling to do sufficient water testing/dosing. Also those with small systems probably find it easier/cheaper just to do routine water changes. I'm lucky in that I work about 15 minutes from an ICP testing center (time saver!). I also use a 2-part dosing system (ESV B-Ionic) that includes some trace elements so there is not a lot of extra trace element dosing required. And for anyone saying that seawater has almost every element, can you name a salt mix that actually has gold in it?
 

Jay Norris

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Hi, I have done 4 - 115gal NSW changes in the last month. I love doing water changes, since we go out in the boat to collect the water, and on the last 3 trips we caught a lot of Dolphin, on very calm sunny days. My water changes are easy, just pump the water out of the sump, and pump the water from the boat into the sump, takes about an hour.
 

OrangeCountyReefer

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I do a 10 to 15% weekly water change. I think it is very beneficial to newer tanks and can really help them thrive. More established tanks can be less frequent.
 

HB AL

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So would it be correct to assume that dosing something like replenish would do an adequate job at mitigating the trace element loss?

@HB AL - stunning.
[/QUOTEi
So would it be correct to assume that dosing something like replenish would do an adequate job at mitigating the trace element loss?

@HB AL - stunning.
i dose Red Sea abcd to replenish trace and other essentials, kinda have my own system that’s been successful for 3 years or so since I stopped water changes so have no plans on changing my regimen Andy going back to water changes. Can’t comlain with my results atleast in my book especially considering I have an overstocked tank in fish and corals. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it is my motto. My fish are more important than the corals but all are flourishing.
 

blasterman

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Re: trace elements.

Those of you claiming the trace element argument please provide me proof and analysis of your favorite salt mix. Salt mixes arent regulated, have no standards, and the term 'trace element" can mean whatever the manufacturer wants.

The main reason for water changes is to export nutrients and keep some tanks from getting into triple digit nitrates. I personally think it's a waste of time and wasteful in terms of resources.
 

Ashish Patel

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No use,, everyones tank is different at any given time. Water changes are vital but ppl who do them continuously I feel are falsely and blinding assuming they are going to be better of in the long run. I also find it impossible to calculate trace element depletion if your constantly doing water changes. Ideal waterchanges for me is 25-30% waterchanges every 2 months. If needed then 2-3 in one week with this amount. Flush out 70% of the tanks water in 1 week has proven better at removing more pollutants than smaller less frequent water changes.. This is my opinion only so not knocking anyones method, lol
 

Ashish Patel

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In new tanks hobbyist are told to stop waterchanges once Dinos come.. So if Dinos are being fueled but waterchanges than the good stuff is obviously struggling in this environment. Too many waterchanges or wrongly timed waterchanges IME can be a bad things. I find when tank few corals are RTN the best thing to do is wait it out, unless your 100% the tank is polluted.
 

Scorpius

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This question has been beaten to death so many times it's not even funny anymore. How many threads are there on the merits of doing or not doing water changes?
 

HB AL

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Re: trace elements.

Those of you claiming the trace element argument please provide me proof and analysis of your favorite salt mix. Salt mixes arent regulated, have no standards, and the term 'trace element" can mean whatever the manufacturer wants.

The main reason for water changes is to export nutrients and keep some tanks from getting into triple digit nitrates. I personally think it's a waste of time and wasteful in terms of resources.
I have a tank in my bedroom so I might limited on what nutrient exports , sump size etc... I have ALOT of CORALS AND FISH(14) 14 fish 4 being triggers and nopox is my go to for nitrate and phosphate reduction coupled with a skimmer and experience. No water changes would not be an option in my heavily mixed reef with lots of acros and a ton of fish without my current system of doing things but I’ve been doing this a long time . It’s not for everyone and I do things like I want for continued success not follow others advice. Just Incase you missed it I consider my system very successful.
75BD084A-47FF-4B4E-8A1A-0A00677F2C2C.jpeg
EDF0E57A-1644-47C0-930A-2495170D6037.jpeg
 

Paul B

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And for anyone saying that seawater has almost every element, can you name a salt mix that actually has gold in it?
Everyone thinks "seawater" is ASW, it is not as that is fake sea water. Real seawater has gold in it.
As I said it, and many other things may not be needed for our purposes but it is in seawater and our fish and corals evolved in it, not ASW so we don't know if any of those elements are needed.
(There is only 0.0004 cents worth of gold in a "ton" of seawater so it would be very cheap to add to asw)
Iodine is needed by crustaceans (Including us) and needs to be added one way or another.

When this hobby started (yes I was there) ASW only contained a small fraction of the elements in real seawater and our tanks suffered. Over the years more elements were added, but not all of them because it was not proven that they are needed. That doesn't mean they are not, we just don't know.
Things like amino acids and other substances that are exuded by algae are not added to ASW.

But we can't dose all of them so occasional water changes are easier.
Being some tanks can and do go many years with no changes, it is probably not that important and it may take many more years for anything to suffer.
Sea water actually gets better with age, up to a point which is one reason new tanks with all new water have all sorts of problems, are not healthy and look lousy. :cool:

In a few months my reef will be fifty years old. I am sure in those years it would have depleted many things if I didn't change at least some water. The vast majority of tanks only run for a few years so it doesn't matter much what you do.


So whats your water change schedule Paul?

I don't have a schedule. If I have time and the weather is good I collect and change some water, usually it amounts to about 40 gallons about 4 or 5 times a year. Sometimes less. My tank is 125 gallons and for the past 45 years most of that water was ASW.
Now that I have the Atlantic 90 yards from my house I use 100% NSW

 
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