What's the REAL cost of your salt mix and how many gallons does it make? | BRStv Investigates

[Sleepydoc]

We have heard this complaint from the beginning of time about the brown film from IO and IO Reef Crystals. The type A personality can't handle it in the least that is for sure! LOL! In any event, is your tank brown? I believe not and that brown film is just a biproduct of the initial mix. If IO is impure and this brown film was detrimental to tanks I don't believe Jason Fox would subject his what, 2000 or so corals to it or the absolutely thousands of reefers who use it. And the end of the day this is a hobby, and it's best to make the choice that makes you feel best. Thanks again Randy for your work with the salt mixes!

I can't speak for others, but I don't think it's harmful to your tank - there is an abundance of successful tanks using IO salts, so if it was in some way toxic we should have heard about it by now. My issue is with how it coats everything in my reservoir and caused issues fouling the circulation pump. If it is due to excessive Ca & Alk levels then it's more an indication of a poor formulation. There's no benefit pushing levels so high that they precipitate out.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Ok, so If someone were to do the ICP test on a fresh bucket of newly mixed Reef crystal (or any other salt) to get a feel for what all is in it, it would be a good idea to do a control on the bucket first— one test of the RO in bucket after being brought up to Mixing temp (just before adding the salt) and one after the salt has been added.

Here I am, telling someone to run $100 worth of tests on $0.32worth of salt and water

What's the ICP test?

 

[Davy Jones]

Awesome stuff this week! Very helpful to see it broken down like that. Thanks guys!

 

[dragon99]

Ok, so If someone were to do the ICP test on a fresh bucket of newly mixed Reef crystal (or any other salt) to get a feel for what all is in it, it would be a good idea to do a control on the bucket first— one test of the RO in bucket after being brought up to Mixing temp (just before adding the salt) and one after the salt has been added.

Here I am, telling someone to run $100 worth of tests on $0.32worth of salt and water

ICP results for multiple salts here:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/saltmix-parameters-bring-on-the-test-results.233233/

 

[Richard Hercher]

What's the ICP test?

Take the salt to an Insane Clown Posse concert and see how many Juggelos snort it like bath bombs, and start eating people.

ICP stands for Inductively Coupled Plasma, so basically you strike a test tube full of water with labratory grade lightning, and watch the pretty colors while a computer tells you what is floating inside.

 

[Frogger]

We have heard this complaint from the beginning of time about the brown film from IO and IO Reef Crystals. The type A personality can't handle it in the least that is for sure! LOL! In any event, is your tank brown? I believe not and that brown film is just a biproduct of the initial mix. If IO is impure and this brown film was detrimental to tanks I don't believe Jason Fox would subject his what, 2000 or so corals to it or the absolutely thousands of reefers who use it.

Seems strange to me that we spend hundreds of dollars having ultrapure RO water with 2 sometimes 3 levels of deionization only to use a salt that has an obvious floating residue. The unfiltered water out of my tap isn't brown either. Would you use your RO water if it had a brown film on it?

I am not saying its bad only I don't want to chance it or do not want to have to filter my salt mix before adding it to my tank.

WWW corals uses one type of Salt, Jason Fox uses another there is more at play in their decisions to use a particular brand of salt than the quality of the salt.

As per the BRS videos and their standing by using pharma grade additives why wouldn't we want to use pharma grade salt?

 

[Sleepydoc]

Seems strange to me that we spend hundreds of dollars having ultrapure RO water with 2 sometimes 3 levels of deionization only to use a salt that has an obvious floating residue. The unfiltered water out of my tap isn't brown either. Would you use your RO water if it had a brown film on it?

I am not saying its bad only I don't want to chance it or do not want to have to filter my salt mix before adding it to my tank.

WWW corals uses one type of Salt, Jason Fox uses another there is more at play in their decisions to use a particular brand of salt than the quality of the salt.

As per the BRS videos and their standing by using pharma grade additives why wouldn't we want to use pharma grade salt?

Part of the problem with city or well water is that there are many potential bad or toxic impurities in the water supply and a DI filter is relatively cheap and easy to run. While some salt mixes like IO may have impurities, it's pretty clear at this point that those impurities are not toxic to your tank. That's the difference.

As for going crazy with a DI filter, many people do go overboard but in the end, 0 TDS is 0 TDS. I just upgraded my system to a 7 stage. Not to make the water cleaner but to save money on DI resin based on my water characteristics and usage.

 

[Frogger]

Part of the problem with city or well water is that there are many potential bad or toxic impurities

I hope not. I drink, cook and live off the City water and pay huge taxes to insure that my water has no toxic impurities. Other than the possibility of chlorine, silicates and phosphates there are many successful fish keepers that use water from the tap. For many years before the onslaught of RO filtration we kept successful reef tanks using tap water after chlorine was removed.
According to the ICP results posted earlier Instant Ocean is high in silicates anyways.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I hope not. I drink, cook and live off the City water and pay huge taxes to insure that my water has no toxic impurities. Other than the possibility of chlorine, silicates and phosphates there are many successful fish keepers that use water from the tap. For many years before the onslaught of RO filtration we kept successful reef tanks using tap water after chlorine was removed.
According to the ICP results posted earlier Instant Ocean is high in silicates anyways.

Chlorine, chloramine, silicates, phosphates, nitrates, copper.. there are many contaminants that are fine for humans in low levels that aren't fine for reef tanks. I'm not disagreeing that it's possible to keep a tank on city water - people have undoubtedly done it. The problem is, the city makes sure the water is fit for human consumption, not reef inhabitants. Then there's Flint, MI...

 

[Richard Hercher]

Then there's Flint, MI...

Flint is kind of a weird situation from how I understand it: the Detroit City water they had been drinking from for decades was fine, but had high delivery costs. When the city went into receivership and the state tried to find ways to cut costs, there was already infrastructure to get water out of the Flint River. The River water itself didn’t have redline contamination, it wasn’t GOOD but could be treated to be potable. Trouble was, there was not a treatment plan put together, and the pH of the water was so weird, the old lead connections to the mains leached into the homes. To bring it back to aquarium water quality, it’s like having switched from a 7stage RODI to a drinking water RO unit, and having dirty buckets before even adding the salt.

 

[topjimmy]

I hope not. I drink, cook and live off the City water and pay huge taxes to insure that my water has no toxic impurities. Other than the possibility of chlorine, silicates and phosphates there are many successful fish keepers that use water from the tap. For many years before the onslaught of RO filtration we kept successful reef tanks using tap water after chlorine was removed.
According to the ICP results posted earlier Instant Ocean is high in silicates anyways.

what might be acceptable for cooking and drinking, may not be good for a reef.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Flint is kind of a weird situation from how I understand it: the Detroit City water they had been drinking from for decades was fine, but had high delivery costs. When the city went into receivership and the state tried to find ways to cut costs, there was already infrastructure to get water out of the Flint River. The River water itself didn’t have redline contamination, it wasn’t GOOD but could be treated to be potable. Trouble was, there was not a treatment plan put together, and the pH of the water was so weird, the old lead connections to the mains leached into the homes. To bring it back to aquarium water quality, it’s like having switched from a 7stage RODI to a drinking water RO unit, and having dirty buckets before even adding the salt.

Yeah - the city made a reasonable decision by switching the water source that had consequences that couldn't have been foreseen. The big (criminal) problem was the fact that they new about the problems and covered them up after they found out.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I've tried a lot of salts to find one that mixes clear. To be honest I have tried a bucket of Bio-Actif....can't recall how it mixed up though. Neo-Marine was just as dirty as IO. I currently have a box and a bag of IO left over that I'll use to cycle the new tank. The Neo-Marine buckets have been great for storing the boxed salt, and using for transporting Kalk from a mixing container to a ATO near the tank. I'll be hard plumbing this in the future to a 50 gallon Kalk container for both tanks to feed from. I use the Bio-Actif bucket for my cleaning supplies. Out of all the buckets I have to say I prefer the lid on the Bio-Actif. Seals well and very easy to get on and off.

You will find that the Tropic Marin Classic and Tropic Marin Pro-Reef salt mixes, all mix up very clear as soon as they are fully dissolved. The organic substances in the Bio-Actif System and Syn-Biotic salt mixes keep the solution slightly cloudy, even when fully dissolved. This cloudiness is also apparent when it is added to the tank in the water change. But the tank water will clear up quickly, usually within 30-45 minutes, and be very clear afterwords. This cloudiness is exactly what you want in the feeding of the beneficial bacteria in carbon dosing.

By the way, when talking about "holding" mixed salt solutions, you can mix and hold the TM Classic and TM Pro-Reef salts indefinitely. The salts with carbon dosing, like the Bio-Actif System and Synbiotic, will start to form slimy clumps after about 36 hours due to the organic polymers contained in the salt mix. These will not hurt anything, they just don't look very attractive.

 

[JDowns]

You will find that the Tropic Marin Classic and Tropic Marin Pro-Reef salt mixes, all mix up very clear as soon as they are fully dissolved. The organic substances in the Bio-Actif System and Syn-Biotic salt mixes keep the solution slightly cloudy, even when fully dissolved. This cloudiness is also apparent when it is added to the tank in the water change. But the tank water will clear up quickly, usually within 30-45 minutes, and be very clear afterwords. This cloudiness is exactly what you want in the feeding of the beneficial bacteria in carbon dosing.

By the way, when talking about "holding" mixed salt solutions, you can mix and hold the TM Classic and TM Pro-Reef salts indefinitely. The salts with carbon dosing, like the Bio-Actif System and Synbiotic, will start to form slimy clumps after about 36 hours due to the organic polymers contained in the salt mix. These will not hurt anything, they just don't look very attractive.

Thanks for the update information Lou. The Classic would be a bit too low on Calcium and Magnesium for my tastes since I run those a bit higher. But the Pro-Reef looks to be a good balance. I would have to bump ALK, but that is relatively cheap and I'd rather have to bump up consistently than rely on trying to hit a perfect target, especially if a batch mixes too high.

The benefit of holding indefinitely is a huge benefit as I switch to AWC on both tanks. I plan on mixing 50 gallons for both tanks to feed from and pull a gallon to two gallons a day.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Thanks for the update information Lou. The Classic would be a bit too low on Calcium and Magnesium for my tastes since I run those a bit higher. But the Pro-Reef looks to be a good balance. I would have to bump ALK, but that is relatively cheap and I'd rather have to bump up consistently than rely on trying to hit a perfect target, especially if a batch mixes too high.

The benefit of holding indefinitely is a huge benefit as I switch to AWC on both tanks. I plan on mixing 50 gallons for both tanks to feed from and pull a gallon to two gallons a day.

You dont want to boost the all in the water change water. If you raise the all, in the Pro-Reef' you will get a precipitate. Thete is a reason the numbers are set where they are. If you want higher alk, boost it in your tank' not the water change water. In the tank you can keep the all quite high' if you want, due to other compounds in the system like phosphates etc. But not in the water change water.

 

[JDowns]

You dont want to boost the all in the water change water. If you raise the all, in the Pro-Reef' you will get a precipitate. Thete is a reason the numbers are set where they are. If you want higher alk, boost it in your tank' not the water change water. In the tank you can keep the all quite high' if you want, due to other compounds in the system like phosphates etc. But not in the water change water.

Thanks Lou.

On my last mix of HW so just ordered some Pro Reef.

Last videos on precipitation and clarity tipped me over the edge.

 

[JDowns]

@Lou Ekus.

Just finished my first bucket and started on the second bucket. This salt mixes very clear and very quickly. 70 gallons will mix in just over 30 minutes in my setup. I let it mix for a few hours before testing. Parameters are very consistent so far, albeit a bit too early to comment fully on this since I'm only on the start of a second bucket. But so far very pleased with how clean the salt is and the consistency so far.

I do like that this salt seems to buffer the PH really well, and these buckets are by far the best out there. Lids are easy to seal an open.

 

[Bpb]

I hope not. I drink, cook and live off the City water and pay huge taxes to insure that my water has no toxic impurities. Other than the possibility of chlorine, silicates and phosphates there are many successful fish keepers that use water from the tap. For many years before the onslaught of RO filtration we kept successful reef tanks using tap water after chlorine was removed.
According to the ICP results posted earlier Instant Ocean is high in silicates anyways.

First. No 2 cities and no 2 wells are the same. If your municipal water is safe for corals to thrive in, congratulations. And I’m not suggesting you ARE making the recommendation, but I’d strongly caution you and anyone else against recommending people use municipal water without RODI filtration prior to putting in a reef tank. You don’t know what is in it. And even if you know what is in yours, that is ALL you can know. My municipal water comes out of the tap with 0.3 ppm PO4, and 25 dKH. I would never dream of using that on a reef tank. Let alone toxic for coral but safe for human Cu levels.

I think you’re missing the point of filtering your tap water for tank use. It has nothing to do with water clarity. Zero tds is zero tds. It doesn’t matter how many DI stages are being run. The only purpose of multiple DI stages is efficiency of media changes.

The chief purpose is to nail in appropriate levels of major and minor elements. The more whacky your municipal water is with those elements the less desirable/more work it is to fix them with every use. Not to mention cumulative buildups of undesirable things in top-off water