What's up with the recent Red Sea Tank failures? 750XXL ? *UPDATE* Design Flaw CONFIRMED by Red Sea !!!

[MnFish1]

Are these stands completely constructed of plywood, or do they have mdf panels as well?

All I saw on the Red Sea site was “These tanks sit on extra durable HPL coated plywood Marine Spec cabinets for greater water resistance, with fully adjustable feet for perfect leveling on any surface.”

From the Red Sea Site:

The new REEFER™ XXL models are 65cm (25.6″) wide and 60cm (23.6″) high and are available in 150cm (59″) long/625 liter (166 gal) capacity or 180cm (71″) long/750 liter (200 gal). They are constructed using 19mm (3/4″) ultra-clear glass and sit on extra durable HPL coated plywood Marine Spec cabinets for greater water resistance. The feet are fully adjustable for perfect levelling on any surface.

 

[MnFish1]

Lemme attempt to get this thread back on track.

After some digging and finding the original threads on FB, alot of the failures have been attributed to the divider wall between the wet and dry sections of the sump. As the weight sags on the stand, the single point of that dividing wall turns into a point. The pictures being shared of this phenomenon are crystal clear - big red flags, clearly not good for tank integrity.

So I figured I'd take a look at my own tank to see if this fulcrum exists. Surely not, right? I know how to level a tank. I leveled, let it settle for two weeks, drained halfway, leveled again plumb.

And lo' and behold, there it is. It's hard to get a picture of it without removing the doors, but in person, its clear as day. The dividing wall is creating a point higher than the rest of the stand *right* at the spot of tank failure:

This is my tank:

And these are other concerned users on FB who have posted their own:

If you look at Picture 2 - Can someone to explain how a 3 or 4 inch piece of plywood (thats under the flat - main part of the stand - could warp like it did in the picture. (the one from Facebook).

That said - this is very interesting - I went under both my tanks - and there is no issue - looking anything like this. In thinking about it - for this to happen - the ends of the tank (both) would have to be sinking relative to the middle panel right? Unless the stand isn't level - I dont see how this could happen. (i.e. wood doesnt warp that way - unless it is also bowing to the front or the back.

PS - when I first took pictures - my tank looked a bit like yours @eddius_maximus but it turned out it was more of an optical illusion when I took a picture looking directly at the tank from the front. Also - the door also seems to make an optical illusion as well - at least on my tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Looks like the top of the stand warps where the divider adds support.. The center support is apply pressure to the middle of the tanks..
Wonder if this this is cause by humidity or getting wet?

In the one picture you can see right under the tank...

That certainly would crack a tank if I am seeing that right..

Not a tank issue but a stand issue...

Shouldn't there be equal pressure on all 3 vertical supports - if the stand is indeed 'level' and the tank is 'level'? the pressure is distributed throughout the bottom of the tank - and the middle section is made of the same 'stuff' as the end pieces - so unless something is not 'square' - this should not happen. Note that in one picture - to me it looks like one end of the stand is lower than the divider and the other end - (of course THAT would cause a fulcrum) - and seems to be likely - or? there have to be some carpentry experts here. Or - even Redsea could weigh in.

 

[JVU]

Since some people are asking for positive experiences...

I have a Reefer 750. I was a relatively early-adopter 2 years ago. My tank is doing great with no tank or stand problems. I initially had a couple minor issues (including one that was my fault) when I was setting it up, and RedSea support was fantastic in assisting me.

 

[TheHarold]

Shouldn't there be equal pressure on all 3 vertical supports - if the stand is indeed 'level' and the tank is 'level'? the pressure is distributed throughout the bottom of the tank - and the middle section is made of the same 'stuff' as the end pieces - so unless something is not 'square' - this should not happen. Note that in one picture - to me it looks like one end of the stand is lower than the divider and the other end - (of course THAT would cause a fulcrum) - and seems to be likely - or? there have to be some carpentry experts here. Or - even Redsea could weigh in.

No, your initial assumption that there must be equal pressure on all 3 pieces is incorrect. Minute differences in height would result in less pressure being applied to the lower section.

There isn’t an optical illusion there- it pretty clearly shows that the top panel of wood is under stress. That stand clearly should have another support.

Mnfish, you seem to be taking this personally- like people are trying to insult you or your aquarium. Or at least that’s how I read it. It’s just people expressive a very valid concern- both of a possible stand design issue, and then Red Sea deleting posts that mention tanks leaking.

 

[MnFish1]

No, your initial assumption that there must be equal pressure on all 3 pieces is incorrect. Minute differences in height would result in less pressure being applied to the lower section.

There isn’t an optical illusion there- it pretty clearly shows that the top panel of wood is under stress. That stand clearly should have another support.

Mnfish, you seem to be taking this personally- like people are trying to insult you or your aquarium. Or at least that’s how I read it. It’s just people expressive a very valid concern- both of a possible stand design issue, and then Red Sea deleting posts that mention tanks leaking.

I probably didnt make myself clear - I meant 'IF the tank is level' (meaning there aren't minute differences in height - there cant be differences in pressure). Of course - I would assume - that if the 3 pieces are not identical - there could be problems - that said - I would HOPE that RedSea is doing a better job measuring these things than the average person who is sawing his/her own wood at home.

No I'm not taking it personal at all. I think I've posted at least a couple times - that it concerns me to see these things - because of where my large tank is and what would happen if it started leaking.

BTW - I'm not a carpenter - and I hated Physics - but - What some are saying here 'doesnt make sense'. The only way this could be a systemic problem would be if the middle support was always microscopically higher than one of the others - or for some reason the 2 end pieces (or one of them) shrunk relative to the higher middle piece. Right?

I'm not trying to start a war - but - if something doesnt make sense - it doesnt make sense right? There is a 3-4 inch piece of plywood under where the 'deflection' is occurring - I have never seen plywood on edge deflect 'up and down; but not front to back'. I merely asked a question.

PS - If RedSea is deleting posts as some are suggesting - I think thats horrible. I don't think thats happening here - yet there have been a number of posts implying that it would 'soon' start. I think thats a slam against this site thats 'not warranted' *unless it happens

 

[TheHarold]

I probably didnt make myself clear - I meant 'IF the tank is level' (meaning there aren't minute differences in height - there cant be differences in pressure). Of course - I would assume - that if the 3 pieces are not identical - there could be problems - that said - I would HOPE that RedSea is doing a better job measuring these things than the average person who is sawing his/her own wood at home.

No I'm not taking it personal at all. I think I've posted at least a couple times - that it concerns me to see these things - because of where my large tank is and what would happen if it started leaking.

BTW - I'm not a carpenter - and I hated Physics - but - What some are saying here 'doesnt make sense'. The only way this could be a systemic problem would be if the middle support was always microscopically higher than one of the others - or for some reason the 2 end pieces (or one of them) shrunk relative to the higher middle piece. Right?

I'm not trying to start a war - but - if something doesnt make sense - it doesnt make sense right? There is a 3-4 inch piece of plywood under where the 'deflection' is occurring - I have never seen plywood on edge deflect 'up and down; but not front to back'. I merely asked a question.

PS - If RedSea is deleting posts as some are suggesting - I think thats horrible. I don't think thats happening here - yet there have been a number of posts implying that it would 'soon' start. I think thats a slam against this site thats 'not warranted' *unless it happens

Re the PS:

They’re deleting posts on their Facebook group, that they moderate. Not on this site- they don’t moderate R2R. And as long as the discussion remains civil (which it has been), I don’t see any reason that this thread would be moderated at all.

 

[lpsouth1978]

I almost got the RS 750XXL, but liked the layout of the stand and sump on the Waterbox 230.6, so I went that way. Reading through this thread, I am VERY happy that I went with the Waterbox. Apparently the 3 chamber stand may be the difference that saves me from a cracked tank. It seems like maybe RS made a bit of a mistake in engineering the stand. If this is the case, I would expect to see an updated stand design released pretty quickly to address this issue going forward.

 

[LadyMac]

Shouldn't there be equal pressure on all 3 vertical supports - if the stand is indeed 'level' and the tank is 'level'? the pressure is distributed throughout the bottom of the tank - and the middle section is made of the same 'stuff' as the end pieces - so unless something is not 'square' - this should not happen. Note that in one picture - to me it looks like one end of the stand is lower than the divider and the other end - (of course THAT would cause a fulcrum) - and seems to be likely - or? there have to be some carpentry experts here. Or - even Redsea could weigh in.

From what I have been told all the pressure is on the four corners. So in my thinking, the weight is pushing down and end up putting a divot probably in the supporting surface. Like maybe the legs on the corners are holding the weight and it’s pushing into the floor. Where the center isn’t getting the same weight and over time it doesn’t sink. So this is causing the center to not give like the corners, causing the breaks.

 

[Morelia]

I have been watching this thread, as I have 525XL and am paranoid about a potential disaster. Luckily it doesn't sound as if the smaller Red Sea Reefer's are incurring similar issues.

I have found 2 details that may or may not contribute to this discussion:

• In the Red Sea Reefer 750XXL assembly manual, the center partition is attached under the top of the stand, whereas the ends of the cabinet/stand are connected to the side of the top. Below is the link to that assembly guide. Specifically, step #16 on page 51. The center divider / support brace (part K) site underneath the top of the stand (part C) in step #13. the ends of the stand (parts F and G) attach to the top of the stand from the side, rather than direct support underneath. This could contribute to the fulcrum effect others have eluded to.

https://5w56d28u4co20frgwagf5y18-wp...014/11/REEFER-Series-manuals-all-models-1.pdf

Red Sea Reefer Assembly Manual

• I also find it interesting that several of the major Red Sea retailers show the 750XXL as out of stock. I checked with one of the Red Sea distributors (NOT LFS) in my area to see what they had in terms of inventory. Interestingly enough, they had every Red Sea Reefer in stock EXCEPT the 750XXL. (See link below) . If there is a recall or a hold for quality control on this model, I would think it would better serve our community to acknowledge the issue, rather than deny it. This only leads to fear, uncertainty and doubt with future purchasing decisions.

Inventory


I am in no way bashing Red Sea, as I have one of their deluxe packages, and have purchased many of their products over the years.

 

[eddius_maximus]

I also find it interesting that several of the major Red Sea retailers show the 750XXL as out of stock. I checked with one of the Red Sea distributors (NOT LFS) in my area to see what they had in terms of inventory. Interestingly enough, they had every Red Sea Reefer in stock EXCEPT the 750XXL. (See link below) . If there is a recall or a hold for quality control on this model, I would think it would better serve our community to acknowledge the issue, rather than deny it. This only leads to fear, uncertainty and doubt with future purchasing decisions.

This has been observed from several vendors -- and I think it's telling. Why has this model been pulled? Either because a problem with the stand has been confirmed by the manufacturer, or because there have been enough incidences to trigger an investigation. Either scenario sucks.

 

[Morelia]

This has been observed from several vendors -- and I think it's telling. Why has this model been pulled? Either because a problem with the stand has been confirmed by the manufacturer, or because there have been enough incidences to trigger an investigation. Either scenario sucks.

I agree, which is why I wanted to go 1 step deeper than the local fish stores, and check with one of the wholesale distributors to check the supply chain.

 

[MnFish1]

This has been observed from several vendors -- and I think it's telling. Why has this model been pulled? Either because a problem with the stand has been confirmed by the manufacturer, or because there have been enough incidences to trigger an investigation. Either scenario sucks.

It hasn't been 'pulled' though... Aquacave and at least one other place has them in stock. BRS and saltwater aquaria are 'out of stock'. One thing that I planned to do today was call and talk to RedSea - because I have a separate issue I was discussing with them to ask about this issue. One thing that I'm pretty 'sure of' - if directly asked - and they deny there is an issue - but they have pulled them from purchase - that would be a big problem.

 

[eddius_maximus]

It hasn't been 'pulled' though... Aquacave and at least one other place has them in stock.

Understood but I'd hazard a guess to say the greater likelihood is that these two vendors probably haven't updated their website to reflect the availability. I'd trust large vendors like BRS to be more up-to-date.

All speculation, though!

 

[Marco S]

Tank checked and all looks good. No noticeable bowing and the entire stand looks level. Checked the front, both sides and
the back of the tank with a 5' level and it is as level as can be. I wonder if any of the affected tanks were using the leveling feet or if they were not using them. That may be something else to look into...

My 750 XXL has been up and running for about 6 months now with no issues besides a few pieces I lost and Red Sea was kind enough to send me the pieces needed. I have experienced nothing but great customer support from them on two separate occasions and would have no issue buying from them again in the future.

 

[K7BMG]

Ok sort of playing devils advocate here..
How do you all know that RS pulled the 750 from production?
From reading this entire thread this has been the consensus.
I feel this is a huge assumption, over a factual statement. (Yes my opinion)

Just because the 750 is not currently in stock in no way implies they have been pulled.

Does anyone have real proof they have been pulled?

Have any of the LFS received a recall notice or told not to sell their on hand stock?

Has anyone come to the realization to the fact that because BRS is running the set up series of a 750, has potentiality sold more 750's this year than ever before?
The fact is, that certain products become hot when events like this happen.

Also many manufactures have specific times they run certain items as a cost effective means. Could it be that Red Seas largest tanks only have production runs once or twice a year, and when their gone, well there gone.

Example: Hornady only manufactures the 50 caliber A-Max bullet once a year period, when they are out, they are out, until the next run the following year. The bullet itself is the largest they produce and obviously uses up lead, copper and aluminum, at a triple rate.

Just something to think about.

 

[AnemoneBay]

Stick to water box! Was thinking of getting a Red Sea tank, now it’s a never from me!

 

[meteoric]

So looking at mine there is definitely a gap half way between the sump chamber and it is nice and tight at the support. Kinda scary.

 

[eddius_maximus]

So looking at mine there is definitely a gap half way between the sump chamber and it is nice and tight at the support. Kinda scary.

Same here. I can slide a playing card under the tank over the main portion of the sump. But it’s too tight when it hits the divider.

 

[DylanE]

So looking at mine there is definitely a gap half way between the sump chamber and it is nice and tight at the support. Kinda scary.

Same here. I can slide a playing card under the tank over the main portion of the sump. But it’s too tight when it hits the divider.

Yikes, that certainly doesn’t sounds right. How long have your tanks been set up? Are you using the leveling feet? What type of surface is the tank on?

It’d be interesting to hear what factors are causing this.