whats your thoughts on LiveAquaria and Divers Den

tiggs

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Yes, you are correct that TSM does a thorough quarantine. They run a nice operation. You can call or stop by and talk to them, either about their livestock or quarantine procedures. They’re more than happy to explain their QT methods. Like usual, you pay a premium for this extra step they take but it’s well worth it.

+1 to this. I live about 20 minutes from TSM and go there often. They do a very full quarantine/conditioning for every fish they sell that includes multiple rounds of medicated treatments, observational period, and getting them to accept frozen foods. I know the general consensus is that you can't trust anyone to QT but yourself, but if anyone's ever gone there, they'd get it.
 

Rython

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Yeah i'm really looking forward to the day when most species are offered captive bred. I buy captive bred when possible now but it's a tiny fraction of available species and we don't get all the benefit we could. I don't think there's an enormous benefit for disease prevention though. At least not yet. Because a lot of the breeders don't sell direct, there's still a chain of custody problem where presumably disease free captive bred fish are transferred to a retailer who puts them in the same tanks as everything else before selling them, thus introducing them to all the same diseases. That certainly appears to be the case at DD. The photos of ORA fish look like they are in the same tanks as the wild caught. I actually wonder if captive bred fish aren't more susceptible to disease because of lack of exposure / low immune resistance.

I imagine once we get to the point where a significant portion of the market is captive bred it will be economically feasible for companies like LA to have all the captive bred stuff on a separate system. It's still not risk free but certainly better... for a while anyway. Eventually disease will get into the system and, depending on the disease, then it's contaminated until they sanitize it, and who can afford to do that periodically at such volume?
 

David S

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I have a 38 gallon Nano and do not have room for a QT tank.
As a result have very little fish turnover (thankfully).
Of the fish I've had my Yellow Tang and Helfrichi Firefish were purchased from Petsolutions. They had or quickly developed Ich which I successfully treated with a combination of Metronidazole and Herbtana, which did not adversely affect the inverts or corals in the tank.
My Flame Angel was purchased from Manhattan Aquariums over 5 years ago and it has always been in good health.
About a year ago, I bought a Melanuras Wrasse from MA's online parent company Unique Corals and it was in great health from the get go.
While I never bought any fish from LA or DD I had bought some coral from them and there was no problem receiving a partial refund on a Caulestra that had 2 instead of the advertised 3 heads
 

BradB

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Regular LA prices are so much cheaper, and I've good luck with survival on several orders. Very rarely order from divers den, but do look out of boredom.
 

Highgrade

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+1 for DD. If there is an issue with the fish, they are great to deal with. Some here have recommended NY Aquatic; I suggest you read reviews before considering that one, I have had nothing but trouble with that vendor.
Have probably purchased 40 fish from Divers Den, and 90% of the fish have been in good shape. For the 10% that did have an issue, I was taken care of, no questions asked.
+1 on DD. As for NYA steer clear. Nothing but bad experiences with them.
 

PaulK

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I’ve purchased a lot of fish from LA in the last few years. Here’s my record:

Survived and still alive:

Two flame wrasses
Copperband
Square anthias
Bartlett’s anthias
Purple fire fish
Blenny
Hippo tang
Two clownfish
Yellow coris wrasse
Carpenters wrasse
Royal gramma
Yasha gobies (died after about three years, I think due to old age)

Dead on arrival:
Two biota mandarins (separate shipments, both times dead on arrival)
Two Bangaii cardinals (these were delayed by ups and were in transit about 48 hours)

Dead within a few days of arrival:
Copperband butterfly


Most of these were from LA rather than Divers den. I put all of them through the tank transfer method and treat with prazi pro.
 

James Kanouff

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Didn't read all responses. I immediately wanted to post my opinion but found most folks are giving great advise on all the different angles on this subject already. A must read for all reef hobbyist tread for sure. R2R has such great advise on stuff and I appreciate that.
My 3 cents is
There is so many delicate factors in getting a new fish into your tank.
Drive in, look, bag em, and dump in will get you in big trouble sooner than later but there is something to be said for keeping the entire QT process and all its medication, small tank, glass box stress out of the equation as well. A tank at home that is small, stable, dedicated is your pick n dump and QT all in one with out exposure risk. It doesn't have to have alot of bells n whistles set up, just don't dump them into a frenzy of established fish in your reef to get eaten chased infected or so on n so forth.

What I experienced was LA was no different than other fish sellers but great CS. lost several purchases and they were covered as advertised.
DD all still alive today and I paid appropriately for it.
Reputable LFS fish that are paid for in full and held for 2 weeks at the store is a super good option as well but still could have disease or eating issues from transferring so low stress Qt is still very very wise.
Medicate fish only if you know what they have or need and how to properly catch move isolate or other wise manage them with out additional damaging significant stress. " This is why a QT initially is just a requirement for me now, I can't risk stressing my other wise happy healthy fish for some new addition.
I now have my own private MARS system 200 gallon QT set up and get fish from anywhere I can that has shortest time in bag and appropriate knowledge of fish handling to try n save money over all and QT 30 days. I only buy once every month or two. Sometimes 5-50 fish at a time. I loose fish in QT. 10 - 50% average sometimes from many factors. And to be honest if you buy 2 or more fish a month, designated qt system is the best option but has a learning curve fore sure.
If you buy 4 fish a year Divers Direct is a very good option. It just gets you that much closer to a healthy eating stable fish. But QT really is a smart choice for every fish when you have a prized collection.
***Best best option, buy a fish from a friends stable tank or break down who has had him for a good period of time 3+ months. Thats worth 2x any other place I think. I have never mystery lost or disease lost a fish from a person I knew and usually price was great as well!!!
Reality is fish often die from
everything related to relocating from point A to B to C to D to you. Many things can help or hurt this but short times in bag and low stress capture from a stable tank basically means very low losses.
Even then fish get sick, fish get eaten, jump, or other wise suicide even if other wise perfect. So its not perfect. Very common hardy fish are great choices as well for obvious reasons and lets be honest most all fish are great to observe and have wonderful individual characteristics beyond rarity. I love my 2 yr old BAR gobies and there like 10$ super hardy fish almost as much as my 2 yr old 250$ Sohol Tang to be honest.

Losses are often hard to definitely know reason for which lead to guesses and a bad reputation for suppliers unfortunately. Understand SW fish will die, they are sensitive. Do things to minimize the negatives they encounter on the way to you. Good luck, research and planning is key to success.
 

Forsaken77

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Are these fish that are all dying on people shipped next day air from the west to east coast? The heat (or cold) alone will kill most animals even shipped overnight, never mind 2 days+. Those Styrofoam containers and hot/cold packs only do so much.
 

Twolabs443

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Are these fish that are all dying on people shipped next day air from the west to east coast? The heat (or cold) alone will kill most animals even shipped overnight, never mind 2 days+. Those Styrofoam containers and hot/cold packs only do so much.
I honestly think the stress of such a long shipment, coast to coast, is what results in my poor survival rate. At least 50% have been DOA for me. But then I saw a post in this thread from person from Mass that has had excellent luck. If they come in alive I’ve had excellent luck long term from that point with all the fish I’ve recieved from LA
 

4FordFamily

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+1 for DD. If there is an issue with the fish, they are great to deal with. Some here have recommended NY Aquatic; I suggest you read reviews before considering that one, I have had nothing but trouble with that vendor.
I’ve found NY to be great to deal with, for what it’s worth.
 

4FordFamily

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I've never ordered any livestock . I just don't want a fish sight unseen. Lately "every" lfs in town doesn't have a healthy looking fish on my list. I'm not compromising what I put into my tanks just because it looks good to me & not even close to what I have.
That being said, I have considered ordering. Just don't like the idea !
Your LFS sources fish form the same places as online, but it’s one more system full of parasites for them to be exposed to, one extra stop before reaching home. Something to think about. Some LFS do a great job and I can justify buying from them despite this because they get the fish eating or something along those lines. But few of those LFS exist here in central Indiana.
 
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4FordFamily

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Didn't read all responses. I immediately wanted to post my opinion but found most folks are giving great advise on all the different angles on this subject already. A must read for all reef hobbyist tread for sure. R2R has such great advise on stuff and I appreciate that.
My 3 cents is
There is so many delicate factors in getting a new fish into your tank.
Drive in, look, bag em, and dump in will get you in big trouble sooner than later but there is something to be said for keeping the entire QT process and all its medication, small tank, glass box stress out of the equation as well. A tank at home that is small, stable, dedicated is your pick n dump and QT all in one with out exposure risk. It doesn't have to have alot of bells n whistles set up, just don't dump them into a frenzy of established fish in your reef to get eaten chased infected or so on n so forth.

What I experienced was LA was no different than other fish sellers but great CS. lost several purchases and they were covered as advertised.
DD all still alive today and I paid appropriately for it.
Reputable LFS fish that are paid for in full and held for 2 weeks at the store is a super good option as well but still could have disease or eating issues from transferring so low stress Qt is still very very wise.
Medicate fish only if you know what they have or need and how to properly catch move isolate or other wise manage them with out additional damaging significant stress. " This is why a QT initially is just a requirement for me now, I can't risk stressing my other wise happy healthy fish for some new addition.
I now have my own private MARS system 200 gallon QT set up and get fish from anywhere I can that has shortest time in bag and appropriate knowledge of fish handling to try n save money over all and QT 30 days. I only buy once every month or two. Sometimes 5-50 fish at a time. I loose fish in QT. 10 - 50% average sometimes from many factors. And to be honest if you buy 2 or more fish a month, designated qt system is the best option but has a learning curve fore sure.
If you buy 4 fish a year Divers Direct is a very good option. It just gets you that much closer to a healthy eating stable fish. But QT really is a smart choice for every fish when you have a prized collection.
***Best best option, buy a fish from a friends stable tank or break down who has had him for a good period of time 3+ months. Thats worth 2x any other place I think. I have never mystery lost or disease lost a fish from a person I knew and usually price was great as well!!!
Reality is fish often die from
everything related to relocating from point A to B to C to D to you. Many things can help or hurt this but short times in bag and low stress capture from a stable tank basically means very low losses.
Even then fish get sick, fish get eaten, jump, or other wise suicide even if other wise perfect. So its not perfect. Very common hardy fish are great choices as well for obvious reasons and lets be honest most all fish are great to observe and have wonderful individual characteristics beyond rarity. I love my 2 yr old BAR gobies and there like 10$ super hardy fish almost as much as my 2 yr old 250$ Sohol Tang to be honest.

Losses are often hard to definitely know reason for which lead to guesses and a bad reputation for suppliers unfortunately. Understand SW fish will die, they are sensitive. Do things to minimize the negatives they encounter on the way to you. Good luck, research and planning is key to success.
Not treating fish in today’s environment with velvet infiltrating every aspect of the distribution system is like playing Russian roulette. Not a good idea. Just my .02

I cite the entire fish disease forum as my source, and 13 years experience with an unbelievable deterioration in fish disease and quality in the past 2-3.
 

KMench

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I have yet to receive any dead fish in the mail from liveaquaria. Dead inverts (shrimp), but never dead fish.
 

KJoFan

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Are these fish that are all dying on people shipped next day air from the west to east coast? The heat (or cold) alone will kill most animals even shipped overnight, never mind 2 days+. Those Styrofoam containers and hot/cold packs only do so much.
My recent DOA DD fish was shipped from Wisconsin...I'm in Minnesota...doubtful it was the trip itself in my particular case. Though I do think it was just too cold in the styro for it. Then again I've had fish shipped directly from Hawaii and they all arrived perfectly so...who knows, eh? :)
 

Forsaken77

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Not treating fish in today’s environment with velvet infiltrating every aspect of the distribution system is like playing Russian roulette. Not a good idea. Just my .02

I cite the entire fish disease forum as my source, and 13 years experience with an unbelievable deterioration in fish disease and quality in the past 2-3.

Exactly. A fish can still eat and look healthy, but still be diseased or carrying something. Not on my watch ;)
 

3mm3

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Not treating fish in today’s environment with velvet infiltrating every aspect of the distribution system is like playing Russian roulette. Not a good idea. Just my .02

I cite the entire fish disease forum as my source, and 13 years experience with an unbelievable deterioration in fish disease and quality in the past 2-3.

It has been quite shocking to see happen
 

tiggs

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Agreed. I've been at this for close to two decades and the quality drop in the past 2-3 years has been something else. Velvet/crypto/etc always existed, but never quite at this volume.

One area that I think we currently have it wrong is automatically treating every new fish with an entire arsenal of strong medications, whether they're sick or not. I'm a strong supporter of QT, but my preference is an extended close observation period in a dedicated QT tank to start off. IMO, if we're really trying to do what's in the best interest of the fish, then we'd take into consideration that they've likely been exposed to a severe temp spike, hyposalinity, ammonia burn, and at least one copper treatment in the weeks/days prior to arriving in the mail. If they show any signs of disease at all during this time, then they get the treatment, followed by another couple weeks of close observation post-treatment.

I understand the logic behind treating everything no matter what and no doubt many fish are saved that would end up dead due to disease, but I also think we've gotten too cavalier with the phrase "they didn't make it through QT" and just chalking it up as a loss. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are definitely many fish that are very stressed from the reasons mentioned above, but disease free and end up dead because of proactively exposing them to an arsenal of strong medications and in many cases, not doing so at correct levels. I'm certainly not knocking anyone that's proactively treating and I completely understand the rationale behind it with the current landscape of fish disease. I just think we could do better by exercising some patience and extending our QT timelines so we can do what's in the best interest of the fish each time.
 

4FordFamily

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Agreed. I've been at this for close to two decades and the quality drop in the past 2-3 years has been something else. Velvet/crypto/etc always existed, but never quite at this volume.

One area that I think we currently have it wrong is automatically treating every new fish with an entire arsenal of strong medications, whether they're sick or not. I'm a strong supporter of QT, but my preference is an extended close observation period in a dedicated QT tank to start off. IMO, if we're really trying to do what's in the best interest of the fish, then we'd take into consideration that they've likely been exposed to a severe temp spike, hyposalinity, ammonia burn, and at least one copper treatment in the weeks/days prior to arriving in the mail. If they show any signs of disease at all during this time, then they get the treatment, followed by another couple weeks of close observation post-treatment.

I understand the logic behind treating everything no matter what and no doubt many fish are saved that would end up dead due to disease, but I also think we've gotten too cavalier with the phrase "they didn't make it through QT" and just chalking it up as a loss. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are definitely many fish that are very stressed from the reasons mentioned above, but disease free and end up dead because of proactively exposing them to an arsenal of strong medications and in many cases, not doing so at correct levels. I'm certainly not knocking anyone that's proactively treating and I completely understand the rationale behind it with the current landscape of fish disease. I just think we could do better by exercising some patience and extending our QT timelines so we can do what's in the best interest of the fish each time.
I’ll just say I keep a plethora of very difficult fish and lose few of n the DT now, which I could not say before.
 

Rython

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Are these fish that are all dying on people shipped next day air from the west to east coast? The heat (or cold) alone will kill most animals even shipped overnight, never mind 2 days+. Those Styrofoam containers and hot/cold packs only do so much.

My losses were all shipped to me in OK City next day from either the west coast or Wisconsin. While I do agree shipping likely plays a role, I don't think it's temperature. During acclimation (usually just temp since I match salinity) I test the bag water temp and it's usually around 75. I haven't seen it out of range yet. And I would think at night there would be significant swings. I haven't received any DOA, but I can usually tell the ones that won't make it immediately. They either come out of the bag with obvious lesions or swimming crazy or just laying on their side breathing hard. My guess is all the banging around from travel stressed them out enough that one of the various pathogens they were carrying really set in.

I've had them die within 3 hours or up to 2 weeks later. A couple of them didn't have obvious symptoms that would allow me to identify the cause of death. I always check for flukes after death and that hasn't usually been the cause for LA/DD. I've had a few that I suspect were Uronema and several bacterial infections. Some I successfully treated, some I couldn't.
 

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