When is the last time you vacuumed your sand bed? Does it matter?

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When is the last time you vacuumed your sand bed?

  • A week ago

    Votes: 218 28.5%
  • A few weeks ago

    Votes: 147 19.2%
  • A few months ago

    Votes: 67 8.8%
  • It's been 6 months or more

    Votes: 51 6.7%
  • It's been over a year

    Votes: 26 3.4%
  • It's been several years

    Votes: 24 3.1%
  • I've never vacuumed the sand

    Votes: 187 24.4%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 45 5.9%

  • Total voters
    765

Lasse

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Are you seriously going to say you have no idea what old tank syndrome is, and be in this since 72
I did not say that i have not heard about it - but i ask you if you can explain for me the biological and chemical processes that you name old tank syndrom without using poster policy.

And these areas, even after bacteria proccess it, are still leaching nitrates and phosphate, along with other undesirables?
What is the real result after a total bacteria breakdown of organic matter and how can that affect the water? How can something leak nitrates - whats the source for nitrates? what are the other undesirables? Heavy metals - if so - can you explain this analys result after 5 years of no sand rinse?

1620811733934.png




Have you heard about bacteria mineralization as an ecological principle?


Im sure you realize the sandbed is the septic tank for your fish?

No I do not - however I have heard about ecology and biological cycles - With knowledge of that - I get this result after 5 years with your "septic tank syndrome" - how could it been done if your right? (no sand cleaning and no regular WC (I have change 80 % 4 years ago))

1620810563559.png


My latest aquarium have run 5 years both without regular WC and no sand rinsing. it have a remote DSB with reversed flow - water from the bottom up to the top. I strongly doubt that this result - seen in the picture - confirms your septic sandbed theory. The aquarium content 40 + fishes and is feed with around 10 g frozen cyclops and 20 g frozen adult artemia every day (wet weight) - it correspond to around 5 g dry food each day

You do know what that brown stuff is right?
Which brown stuff - never seen any

Not removing it can lead to an overload and crash. Not just an overload of poop but also bacteria.
Explain the processes behind an overload and crash and not rinse the sandbed. How long time does it take? what´s happen?

IMO - the to use of the word "old tank syndrome" as the endpoint of not doing sand bed cleaning is like to say to our children that you will end up in hell if you do not do as I tell you. No one knows what it is but all a afraid of to end up in that hot place without any questions.

Dont play professor and ignorant at the same time
I do not understand what you mean.

Sincerely Lasse
 

haleyre63

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Many reefers have sand in their reef tank and many of us want to keep the sand clean, white and pristine! One way you can achieve a clean sand bed is to clean it! HA! Imagine that! One of the ways to clean a sand bed is to use a cleaning tool and siphon the detritus from the sand. We call it vacuuming the sand. Easy right? Not always. This can be a difficult task if you don't have the right tools or your sand is not easily accessible or you're lazy :p as well as other variables. This difficulty can lead us to not cleaning the sand at all. Then again some reefers don't believe it's necessary at all so let's talk about it!

1. When is the last time you vacuumed your sand bed?

2. Do you think vacuuming your sand bed will help mitigate issues in the long term progress of your reef?


ewfwefewfw.png
What is the best way to vacuum the sand? When I try it takes my sand out and then clogs my cipher.
 

Andy 71

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Many reefers have sand in their reef tank and many of us want to keep the sand clean, white and pristine! One way you can achieve a clean sand bed is to clean it! HA! Imagine that! One of the ways to clean a sand bed is to use a cleaning tool and siphon the detritus from the sand. We call it vacuuming the sand. Easy right? Not always. This can be a difficult task if you don't have the right tools or your sand is not easily accessible or you're lazy :p as well as other variables. This difficulty can lead us to not cleaning the sand at all. Then again some reefers don't believe it's necessary at all so let's talk about it!

1. When is the last time you vacuumed your sand bed?

2. Do you think vacuuming your sand bed will help mitigate issues in the long term progress of your reef?


ewfwefewfw.png
 

reefsaver

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I normally vacuum the sand bed every water change because I have pets and random hairs float to the bottom of the tank, they somehow manage to get into the lidless sump.
 

brandon429

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if everyone stops sandbed care and resumes hands off like the masters do, does your sand stay uninvaded?

they’re literally saying it will, let’s test.

all public tanks here simply stop caring for your sand, let Mother Nature handle it inside the box. All your waste will be mineralized harmlessly

if you don’t have a goby, add some.

let’s test complete hands off for the next five years, report back here.
 

Lasse

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if everyone stops sandbed care and resumes hands off like the masters do, does your sand stay uninvaded?

they’re literally saying it will, let’s test.

all public tanks here simply stop caring for your sand, let Mother Nature handle it inside the box. All your waste will be mineralized harmlessly

if you don’t have a goby, add some.

let’s test complete hands off for the next five years, report back here.
That´s not my standpoint - everyone use the method he/she have trust in - I´m only reacting very hard when someone says that this work for me and therefore it is the only accepted way to do it. When - without anything supporting their claims - just use total general terms without know anything of the complexed nature of a biological system. If you want to manual clean your tank , use filter socks and trust in manual work in order to get a working system - do bare bottom. If you want that nature should do your job and have stable and working system - use sand and do not clean. As usually - when you do anything between two seperate working systems - its normally end up in a mess - that´s my experiences.

Today - we have tools that make it possible to see if a method works during time. One of the main claims about not rinse the sand is that things build up. As I know it - "things" have never been specified. Some - have in the past say that regular WC and sand rinsing will make unwanted elements to build up.

Here is my charts from 20 tests during 5 years without regular WC in 4 years (the last 4) and never any siphoning of organic material - according to unwanted substances

1620820642724.png


1620820685228.png




1620818391907.png


Al in µg/L (ppb) Does these real measurements strengthen or diminish the theory of accumulation?

You may reply to this with the words - Maybe - Lasse is right - but how with unbalanced ion rate between mainly Chloride and Sodium? That´s a major problem with dosing Ca, Mg and alk without regular WC - that´s a common wisdom often refereed too.

But a reality check is this test in my system - done after 4 years without any regular WC

1620819174924.png


At least in my system - it is just a myth with longtime ion unbalancing when you not do regular WC. Yes - it looks like Sulphate is rising during time but the three last SO4 samples show the figures 3100, 2868 and 3215 mg/L (ppm) and my sulphur concentration looks like this

1620820288321.png


This is hard fact according to the risks with not doing regular WC and not rinse the sands - and - IMO - it looks like it rebut the claims what the hard liners of WC and sand siphoning have subscribed to for a long time - at lest in my aquarium

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Spieg

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Just did last weekend. It had been about 7 months... I think it is important to do a couple of times a year.
 

Treefer32

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So if I quit vacuuming every two weeks, the brown stuff will go ahead and cycle and quit? That is only reason I vacuum. I have had my tank up three years. 140 gallons.
I haven't vacuumed mine in 3 years. I have fine oolite sand so it would get vacuumed up. I would stop vacuuming it. But that's just me. Get a diamond goby or some other sand sifting goby, some nassarus snails and let them do the heavy lifting. A burrowing wrasse would be good too. 2-3 sand dwelling organisms should maintain it quite well. Depending on size of tank. I have a 350 and Have 3-4 sand dwelling organisms that maintain mine. It may take a few months. I remember the first year, the sand constantly covered in brown and red crap. After about a year and having a wrasse, goby, and pistol shrimp to sift through the sand, it stopped growing. takes time for it to balance out and vacuuming it just enables it to keep growing.
 

Lost in the Sauce

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I've vacuumed my sand bed ZERO times in all my different tanks for 35+ years. Never new it was "a thing" till I started reading on forums about people saying its a must and do it every water change. In my experience, not only do I do zero water changes I've never vacuumed my sand and from my experience in all those decades of not vacuuming my sand beds I can say it really serves no legitimate purpose. But if some people think it does something to keep the tank and its inhabitants alive, then keep on vacuuming.
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Go Lakers!
 

Shooter6

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I did not say that i have not heard about it - but i ask you if you can explain for me the biological and chemical processes that you name old tank syndrom without using poster policy.


What is the real result after a total bacteria breakdown of organic matter and how can that affect the water? How can something leak nitrates - whats the source for nitrates? what are the other undesirables? Heavy metals - if so - can you explain this analys result after 5 years of no sand rinse?

1620811733934.png




Have you heard about bacteria mineralization as an ecological principle?




No I do not - however I have heard about ecology and biological cycles - With knowledge of that - I get this result after 5 years with your "septic tank syndrome" - how could it been done if your right? (no sand cleaning and no regular WC (I have change 80 % 4 years ago))

1620810563559.png


My latest aquarium have run 5 years both without regular WC and no sand rinsing. it have a remote DSB with reversed flow - water from the bottom up to the top. I strongly doubt that this result - seen in the picture - confirms your septic sandbed theory. The aquarium content 40 + fishes and is feed with around 10 g frozen cyclops and 20 g frozen adult artemia every day (wet weight) - it correspond to around 5 g dry food each day


Which brown stuff - never seen any


Explain the processes behind an overload and crash and not rinse the sandbed. How long time does it take? what´s happen?

IMO - the to use of the word "old tank syndrome" as the endpoint of not doing sand bed cleaning is like to say to our children that you will end up in hell if you do not do as I tell you. No one knows what it is but all a afraid of to end up in that hot place without any questions.


I do not understand what you mean.

Sincerely Lasse
You realize our reefs will never have the complete bacterial makeup of the ocean. We do not have the ability to maintain the environments they require. Therefore we are working with incomplete systems.

Would you take a scoop of your sandbed, drain the brown poop out and drink it? No, why? Because its poop!, even fish poop thats broken down is still another organisms poop!.

No sandbed allows all that poop to be wShed down into the sump to be caught by filter media, and skimmers.
 

Lasse

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I suppose you do not eat organic farmed vegetables either - it still poop but converted.

Let me do the math. I feed with 30 gram frozen food each day (wet weight) a normal conversion factor for philotherm animals is 1:5. all waste will not be poop - but say that my fish make 3 g pop a day, It means 1 kg/year and in my 5 years - it means 5 kg pop. 5 kg poop in a 300 L aquarium - it should be able to spot that - but no - you can´t spot any brown poop at all - if I stir my sand - its white dust. I have no mechanical filter at all. Put 5 kg poop in a 300 L tank an see if it works - it does not but because most of my fish organic waste has been converted - there is only minerals left.

You realize our reefs will never have the complete bacterial makeup of the ocean. We do not have the ability to maintain the environments they require. Therefore we are working with incomplete systems.

That´s right according to the pelagic forms but normal sediment bacterial fauna is not very difficult to achieve. This is also a general saying that is possible to check today with help of genetic scanning and DNA analys as @AquaBiomics does. And as usally - when saying get fact checked - it is clear - its only sayings with no content in it. Of the around 30 most common bacteria families - nearly all aquarium have them in the sediment and water.

You talking about poop - but already when it leave the fish - it is already mostly bacterial mass.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Shooter6

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I suppose you do not eat organic farmed vegetables either - it still poop but converted.

Let me do the math. I feed with 30 gram frozen food each day (wet weight) a normal conversion factor for philotherm animals is 1:5. all waste will not be poop - but say that my fish make 3 g pop a day, It means 1 kg/year and in my 5 years - it means 5 kg pop. 5 kg poop in a 300 L aquarium - it should be able to spot that - but no - you can´t spot any brown poop at all - if I stir my sand - its white dust. I have no mechanical filter at all. Put 5 kg poop in a 300 L tank an see if it works - it does not but because most of my fish organic waste has been converted - there is only minerals left.



That´s right according to the pelagic forms but normal sediment bacterial fauna is not very difficult to achieve. This is also a general saying that is possible to check today with help of genetic scanning and DNA analys as @AquaBiomics does. And as usally - when saying get fact checked - it is clear - its only sayings with no content in it. Of the around 30 most common bacteria families - nearly all aquarium have them in the sediment and water.

You talking about poop - but already when it leave the fish - it is already mostly bacterial mass.

Sincerely Lasse
Ill call b.s. on this. If you vacuum a spot by your rocks, or anywhere in the sand bed for that matter, you will see brown poop come out.

Sure it gets broken down to a point, but things you cannot deny solids are still left in the sandbed, you dont have a beach connected to your reef where organics wash up on, and are broken down by arobic and anarobic bacteria, taken up by organisms that are consumed by larger organisms, to the point they are carried off into the land and pooped out to feed your organically grown vegetables . You dont have a 10k meter sea floor where marine snow falls to be consumed by arobic and anarobic organisms.

You choose to have a poop filled sandbed, and thats fine for you.
Others choose to vacuum the poop out, like flushing the toilet after pooping, and thats great!

On my new 1200gal system ive chosen to go bare bottom and catch all that poop with filter pads and a skimmer.
A refugeum for what those miss.

Your way of reefing ( which ive done in the past) is to have a latrine trench.
Others have a septic tank that gets regularly emptied ( as they need to be) and i choose to have a toilet that removes the poop as fast as possible.
 

Lasse

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Ill call b.s. on this. If you vacuum a spot by your rocks, or anywhere in the sand bed for that matter, you will see brown poop come out.
What is poop if you leave the modern man's psychological fear of his own feces? It is bacteria, bacteria, bacteria, other microorganisms, organic matter not broken down during the hours in the digestive organs and inorganic matter. Nothing else. The organic matter will be broken down further in the sand bed (if you do not disturb it) and the rest will be bacteria, other microorganism and inorganic matter.

Good luck with your experiences with bare bottom and your new aquarium. I hope you will take a Aquabiomics test when the aquarium is one or two years old and compare with other more natural driven aquarium. interesting would be to compare the rate of known pathogen microorganisms in both type of systems

Why do you change to bare bottom? Was it not a good idea to vacuum your sandbed?

but things you cannot deny solids are still left in the sandbed
No I can´t - but I can deny that it is mostly organic solids

If my system is a septic tank - how can it looks like it does for the moment?

Sincerely Lasse
 

Paul B

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Lasse imagine what must be in my 50 year old gravel ;Vomit

I know my tank is a self regulating eco system where everything is re cycled in the tank itself.
(like those grass shrimp you can buy in a sealed glass globe)

Once or twice a year I stir the gravel in the few places where I can reach and suck out any detritus but I only do that so the gravel doesn't compact and clog my UG filter.

Detritus is mostly amphipod shells, copepod shells, dead bacteria, sea urchin spines, bristle worm bristles, indigestible shells from the numerous mysis I feed, tiny pieces of gravel that constantly get smaller and turn into dust, fish scales etc.

"Everything" else gets re cycled either into the pods, thousands of tube worms, sponges, and algae scrubber. Many of my fish are pod eaters and I have probably millions of pods over decades as I never bought a pod.

My tank depends on all that recycled poop to be self sufficient and I don't have to feed every day as my fish hunt on their own.
 

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