Where do you keep your nutrients for high end SPS coloration?

[Earl Karl]

I feed my tank ten times a day with nori on mag clip to feed my Moorish Idol and a tsp of reef roids per day for my 100 gallon growout tank. Due to a massive refugium with intense horticulture lights, I only have 0.01 ppm PO4 and >1 ppm NO3. This was tested by multiple test kits, including my eXact iDip spectrometer.

My ideal parameters are 0.05-0.08 ppm PO4 and around 1 ppm NO3, but I'm fine with 5-10 ppm NO3

 

[jda]

There probably more factors, but some of the big ones are 1). throughput... more important that residual numbers and heavy import with heavy export with low residuals is the best, but if you do not have high throughput, then higher residuals might be a good idea, 2). specimens... I mostly keep acropora, but some that I have will brown and quit growing at 5-10 ppm of nitrate and some do not care at all, and lastly 3). chasing... I would rather have nearly any number in the range than chase numbers with chemicals... I think that too many times a certain method (higher, nsw, etc.) gets the blame for the hobbyist chasing numbers.

High end SPS can be misleading. Some of the trendy and expensive SPS out right now are trick-light rainbow tenuis and these are really easy corals to keep that do not seem to mind elevated levels of N or P. Compare these to some smooth skins or some other types and some of them just quit when levels get much above NSW - keep in mine that .20 P and 2.0 N are 20x higher than natural seawater and 10 ppm of nitrate is 100x more than seawater... so it is not crazy to think that not everything will be happy with this.

 

[DirtMcGurt]

Speaking of "chasing numbers", since it's been mentioned a few times here... What's the other option if you don't try to dial in a specific N and P range? Just let it go and let the levels fall where they fall? I'm genuinely curious because I think those 2 words can be misleading for some. It was misleading for me. I let my N03 and P04 go and all I got was hair algae and dinos lol. So a little clarity on that would have helped me a lot.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

There probably more factors, but some of the big ones are 1). throughput... more important that residual numbers and heavy import with heavy export with low residuals is the best, but if you do not have high throughput, then higher residuals might be a good idea, 2). specimens... I mostly keep acropora, but some that I have will brown and quit growing at 5-10 ppm of nitrate and some do not care at all, and lastly 3). chasing... I would rather have nearly any number in the range than chase numbers with chemicals... I think that too many times a certain method (higher, nsw, etc.) gets the blame for the hobbyist chasing numbers.

High end SPS can be misleading. Some of the trendy and expensive SPS out right now are trick-light rainbow tenuis and these are really easy corals to keep that do not seem to mind elevated levels of N or P. Compare these to some smooth skins or some other types and some of them just quit when levels get much above NSW - keep in mine that .20 P and 2.0 N are 20x higher than natural seawater and 10 ppm of nitrate is 100x more than seawater... so it is not crazy to think that not everything will be happy with this.

I agree 100% but I believe you left out a couple important details. First, and most important to me, is that nsw levels of no3/po4 require nsw alk, cal and mag. And B, even though you’re correct about our tanks having 10x, 20x, 100x etc no3/po4 than nsw, in nature there is an infinite amount of food in the form of live zooplankton and bacteria. Our tiny boxes of water do not have that luxury, so we need to feed. Most ppl don’t understand throughput. They just test and think “no3 is 1 and po4 0.02 is good, because that’s more than what’s found in nature, but I don’t want it to go higher or get algae. So I better turn my gfo reactor on or pour extra vodka tonight” and so on.

 

[Earl Karl]

Speaking of "chasing numbers", since it's been mentioned a few times here... What's the other option if you don't try to dial in a specific N and P range? Just let it go and let the levels fall where they fall? I'm genuinely curious because I think those 2 words can be misleading for some. It was misleading for me. I let my N03 and P04 go and all I got was hair algae and dinos lol. So a little clarity on that would have helped me a lot.

I don't chase numbers, I chase ratios. N : P in NSW is 16:1. I keep that ratio and I see the best growth along with stable Alk.

 

[jda]

True on the terminology of "chasing." To me...

• It is OK for you to use things and media to lower them, but you have to go SLOW and take the approach that it can take many months. Chasing should mean that you are acting impulsively or too quickly.
• Cheato, fuge all work, but slowly. Using GFO, sulfur denitrator, organic carbon, etc. can be fine too, if you go slow, don't use too much and change it often.
• The idea should be to have a DELIBERATE and PATIENT plan and not to chase things quickly or on a whim.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of our acropora get fed, or need fed, even nature. Yes, there are studies and proof with NPS, LPS, softies and other lagunal stuff, but set these aside because I am talking about acropora - some of this assumes that coral is coral, which of course is not true. There are some studies that show that some kinds of Poci can capture food, but no idea if they got any nourishment out of it. When we were in the coral sea and went out of the boat, the marine biologist laughed when I asked him about the nighttime plantonic feedings... they just do not exist in that area... moreso in other parts of the ocean or shallow lagoons near land. All of this "corals get fed" stuff is mostly pseudoscience. What amazes me is that people who are so in-tune to replicate what they see in nature take risks with the only thing that is for-sure known to feed coral - light for zooplankton to create sugars for the corals to use - by cutting spectrum, time and intensity with the argument that they are "just fine."

I do not "feed" my coral, add any amino acids nor do I have levels of N and P above that of natural seawater. I do, however, have perhaps the best quality and quantity of light available. You would be hard pressed to find coral that grow as fast as mine or look as good (yes, mine look incredible too if you want to bring some RB diodes over to illuminate them). The fish do get fed routinely and the coral do have what I presume to be a good level of ammonia and ammonium to use for nitrogen.

 

[jda]

I do agree that if you want to go NSW, then go all the way. Just picking and choosing is likely a very bad idea and while you might find a few that can do it, you won't likely find a mass of people.

Throughput is heavy import and heavy export. Skim a bunch, have a sand bed and real live rock to process nitrate, fuge where you actually grow enough macro to remove it regularly to remove nitrate and phosphate, change water.. all the stuff that you have heard about for years and years that always has and always will work... biology, bacteria and chemistry has not changed since reefing began, so don't try and cheat nature... rather embrace it and help it do it's job.

Zeovit is a throughput system that uses chemical and natural methods to keep residual values low while always having an abundance of "stuff" in the tank. The BRS guys in their summary of Zeo sum it up by saying something like "while N and P are nearly undetectable in this system, it has more "nutrients" than any other that we have." I hate the word nutrient there because they mean building block and not energy source or, but you get the idea...

 

[Earl Karl]

True on the terminology of "chasing." To me...

• It is OK for you to use things and media to lower them, but you have to go SLOW and take the approach that it can take many months. Chasing should mean that you are acting impulsively or too quickly.
• Cheato, fuge all work, but slowly. Using GFO, sulfur denitrator, organic carbon, etc. can be fine too, if you go slow, don't use too much and change it often.
• The idea should be to have a DELIBERATE and PATIENT plan and not to chase things quickly or on a whim.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of our acropora get fed, or need fed, even nature. Yes, there are studies and proof with NPS, LPS, softies and other lagunal stuff, but set these aside because I am talking about acropora - some of this assumes that coral is coral, which of course is not true. There are some studies that show that some kinds of Poci can capture food, but no idea if they got any nourishment out of it. When we were in the coral sea and went out of the boat, the marine biologist laughed when I asked him about the nighttime plantonic feedings... they just do not exist in that area... moreso in other parts of the ocean or shallow lagoons near land. All of this "corals get fed" stuff is mostly pseudoscience. What amazes me is that people who are so in-tune to replicate what they see in nature take risks with the only thing that is for-sure known to feed coral - light for zooplankton to create sugars for the corals to use - by cutting spectrum, time and intensity with the argument that they are "just fine."

I do not "feed" my coral, add any amino acids nor do I have levels of N and P above that of natural seawater. I do, however, have perhaps the best quality and quantity of light available. You would be hard pressed to find coral that grow as fast as mine or look as good (yes, mine look incredible too if you want to bring some RB diodes over to illuminate them). The fish do get fed routinely and the coral do have what I presume to be a good level of ammonia and ammonium to use for nitrogen.

There's no one way of success anyways. Sanjay Joshi has like 0.5 ppm PO4 and like 60 ppm NO3 yet he has great success with his tank. Others I have seen at ULN and have great success. What they have in common is stability and balance. When people chase numbers, usually there is too much change for a reef to handle. Chasing ratio however, numbers may change (tho rarely), but it is still in balance. Stability is key.

I do dose a crap ton of things like Acropower, Aquavitro Fuel, and various trace elements and feed Reef Roids every night because to me, fish waste is sufficient, but not optimal for coral nutrition. I want the best of the best without overdoing it.

 

[Earl Karl]

It also has to do with frag size when it comes to acro frags. A lot of times frags are way too small and don't have enough corallites to support itself, which is why often times frags just go without any explanation, even when everything is fine.

However you pretty much have almost 100% success with any acro frag when you have a nice size frag that has enough corallites to support itself and a balanced tank.

 

[SeaDweller]

...and the debate goes on.

look, lets be real. Asking these questions really doesn't do much because I can't implement what bubba or farmerty or jda or chaswood or coral euphoria or battlecorals or jason fox does unless i run their EXACT set up with everything 100% the same as they do, and even then it's not guaranteed to produce the same results.

there's no one way to do this hobby, as everyone can clearly see, there's so many levels of success (and failures), but you just have to be diligent in knowing your tank THAT well and knowing what to do and when. You can replicate your own success by knowing what was working so well and not deviating away from that, not even skipping a water change or changing filter media, not waiting that extra week to change out your RODI stuff.

Whatever's working, take a mental snapshot (or notes) and just keep doing that weekly, biweekly, monthly, what have you.
Some are super successful at NSW levels and running MH. Some have super awesome T5 tanks, some have super awesome LED tanks.

...but asking these questions is good cuz you get to pick the brains of experts (like I like to do) and see what works for them and see how it MAY work for your own system.

One of the best pieces of advice I got was from @Coral Euphoria : "I don't *** with my source water". He changes his DI resin out WAY early, where it's almost wasteful.

 

[Earl Karl]

I think nowadays people seem to forget or don't acknowledge that corals are delicate creatures. Maybe it's because corals can't show it, I don't know, but it seems like people just look past it and create an environment they thought was right, but instead kill or brown out the animal because of the lack of understanding that corals are delicate and patience is to be respected.

Treat the animal with respect and it will do wondrous things for you. Like grow and be colorful.

 

[jda]

It is true that anybody who is looking to emulate another should go in 100%. It is smart. I do not advocate being like a vendor since their goals are different than yours, unless you are a vendor.

You should also pay attention to what they are doing and the past and recent successes that they had. It is true that lately Dr. Joshi has been running higher levels of building blocks and he cannot keep all of the different types of acropora that he used to keep - he is pretty honest about this. ...so all of the details matter and if you want to be like him, then buy 3.5x xr30 Radions to replace each MH, raise them up way high, run them at 100% on all channels, keep your N and P higher and just know that not all acropora will make it. You can have a great tank like this, for sure. You have to pay attention to all of the details and not just the ones that support the narrative that you want - we all do this at some level even if unconscious and we don't mean to (human nature). I do not want this because I want to keep those acropora that require different care.

I think that half of the time, people get a false sense of security because some corals can do well for a time before they die... so they thought that what they did was right for a few months when the truth is that they were slowly dying the whole time. Clams are notorious for this. Only significant new growth is a positive positive sign... just keeping stuff alive is something, but not always a great indicator of truly thriving stuff.

I do totally agree with not trying to be like somebody else, but seeking knowledge and using it to find your own path. This can be hard because people rely on message board posts too much and experts and books too little. Take this discussion, for example where people are often misinformed... N and P are technically a nutrient, but they are not fuel or food like most people think where more does more. They are a building block of life where you need just enough, but not too many and more does no good. Fuel comes from sugars from the zoox that the light helps with - more sugars can do more. N and P are only need to built or repair new organic tissue - they are not a nutrient like food/fuel. Think of N and P like bricks at a job site... you only need just enough around to keep the line moving and the workers laying new bricks, which is a slow and steady process. If you have too many bricks laying around, then it gums up the works and makes everything less efficient with import of new materials and export of waste. This metaphor is not 100%, because none are, but you get the point... Every living creature will die with too much N or P, but the level can be really different - the example that I gave before is a good one where my Purple Monster will not thrive as well with N over 1, but other corals do not care at all. Diatoms and dinos will die with higher levels of N or P. Coralline will stop growing as fast. Once you understand this, then what benefit is there of having more than is needed? One benefit could be to kill dinos or diatoms, which I guess can really be good.

Lastly, since we are on the topic of effective N and P management... Most corals prefer to get their N from ammonia and ammonium - this is efficient and easy to access. If they have to use NO3 for nitrogen, then they have to expend extra energy to split up the molecule in the range of 30-50% (forgot where I saw this, but I have seen it a few places) and this is not preferred. All of the people who have always thought that fish food is a superior source to feed coral were right. Dosing N is probably not doing what you think, unless your thought was that it was going to raise a number on a test kit - the corals are still looking for ammonia and ammonium even after you dosed sodium nitrate, or whatever. Combine this with the fact that most po4 that gets dosed in batches just binds to aragonite, then there is little hope that dosing N and P does much at all... and even if it does, it does not do it as well as just feeding fish more. Small steady does of ammonia/ammonium and po4 seem to be the most efficient and best way to feed coral. I am amazed that more people do not dose small amounts of ammonia all day - most people see this as a poison, but it is not any more of a poison than N and P in appropriate levels.

Aminos can be absorbed through the tissue of coral cell walls but also single cell and smooth cell micro organisms. There is some evidence that corals can use this, but little evidence that they can outcompete the bacteria, algae and other waterborne stuff that probably gets to it first. Even if the aminos all get used up before they get to the coral, there is N and P on the backend along with more single cell stuff around for food, so it does probably do something, even if indirect.

/tldr

 

[Earl Karl]

Many don't really dose ammonia due to the fact that there is a safer method. Add fish. To advanced reefers, dosing ammonia isn't so bad idea, but outside of that, I can totally see stories like how they trip and dump the whole bottle in the tank or something like that lol. Ammonia higher than 0.1 ppm (which is around NSW levels and also, good luck finding a test kit that can test low) will affect fish in the long run, even some fish, in a short time. It's like arsenic, doesn't kill people right away, but it will in the long run. NO3 is a bit more abundant, less toxic , and it is easier to test, therefore people dose it. So it's not so much that people dose NO3 over ammonia just because they think it's better, it's more so because of the reasons I mentioned.

Also, I believe people only dose N and P when their fuge or other export does TOO much. I am one of the cases but I don't dose N and P. I just feed more, but even that isn't doing anything. Dosing N and P ain't useless if your NO3 and PO4 are 0. There are calculators that helps you dose the right amount to get the right levels so they are available in the water column rather than it getting absorbed elsewhere.

N and P is tied to Ca and Alk. If your nutrients are high, then Alk. and Ca should be high as well and vice versa so the tissue and skeleton grow at a even pace.

Remember, just because it is anecdotal, doesn't mean it isn't true. Anecdotal only becomes questionable when it is something we can't see. But we can all see success. There are a lot of people who dose N and P and amino acids and have successful tanks like @FishOfHex, I'm sure he stated in his videos that without it, his tanks would not thrive. I dose amino acids and I have never had better growth and color than ever. My OG Purple Monster grew in 5-10 ppm NO3 when I used to have my 240g. I feed reef roids because my acros have mouths that want to eat and they benefit from it. Hell, maybe that C, N, and P are not the building blocks of life, who knows? Most of us can't see any of that stuff besides in books and hoping the biologists weren't lying to us (I know that's not the case, but I'm making my point). But success doesn't need evidence, it is already proof itself. The real problem is no one comprehends success the same way, which complicates a lot of things a lot more than it is.

 

[Cassian]

Some will spit feathers at what I’m about to write but
I don’t bother to check nutrients at all . I use the algae on the glass as my barometer. If I have to use my magnet swiper every couple days then it’s good. No algae I get worried. I feed normally for the number of fish in the aquarium.
The alkalinity stays at 9 constant.
The calcium is always 460+
And every day or two I swipe the glass . The CUC handles the inside. And go get a coffee. That’s it .

I literally almost use the same method. lol. WaltD growing like a weed

 

[Ashish Patel]

My tanks at a safer range when nutrients are kept at a natural range without any interference. My nitrates always tend to be 0 - or close to it so I dose few caps of flourish nitrogen every month. My phosphates are always very high and I mean over .10-.20 range. I feel early on they where too low so I had to feed heavy but now they tend to stay at .10 and I do notice more algae on the glass but the corals seem to be much more hardier with phosphates and I can go alot longer without testing or worrying if I have starving my acros. Ideally range for me in an established reef tank is .08-.15 phosphates and .5-5ppm on Nitrates.. Forcing them any one way wont' help and I notice my tanks nutrients are very stable after 2 years from starting the reef

 

[bubbaque]

True on the terminology of "chasing." To me...

• It is OK for you to use things and media to lower them, but you have to go SLOW and take the approach that it can take many months. Chasing should mean that you are acting impulsively or too quickly.
• Cheato, fuge all work, but slowly. Using GFO, sulfur denitrator, organic carbon, etc. can be fine too, if you go slow, don't use too much and change it often.
• The idea should be to have a DELIBERATE and PATIENT plan and not to chase things quickly or on a whim.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of our acropora get fed, or need fed, even nature. Yes, there are studies and proof with NPS, LPS, softies and other lagunal stuff, but set these aside because I am talking about acropora - some of this assumes that coral is coral, which of course is not true. There are some studies that show that some kinds of Poci can capture food, but no idea if they got any nourishment out of it. When we were in the coral sea and went out of the boat, the marine biologist laughed when I asked him about the nighttime plantonic feedings... they just do not exist in that area... moreso in other parts of the ocean or shallow lagoons near land. All of this "corals get fed" stuff is mostly pseudoscience. What amazes me is that people who are so in-tune to replicate what they see in nature take risks with the only thing that is for-sure known to feed coral - light for zooplankton to create sugars for the corals to use - by cutting spectrum, time and intensity with the argument that they are "just fine."

I do not "feed" my coral, add any amino acids nor do I have levels of N and P above that of natural seawater. I do, however, have perhaps the best quality and quantity of light available. You would be hard pressed to find coral that grow as fast as mine or look as good (yes, mine look incredible too if you want to bring some RB diodes over to illuminate them). The fish do get fed routinely and the coral do have what I presume to be a good level of ammonia and ammonium to use for nitrogen.

Have any recent pics of your corals? I always see you saying your methods but I would love to see the results of it. Some new pics.

 

[wareagle]

It is true that anybody who is looking to emulate another should go in 100%. It is smart. I do not advocate being like a vendor since their goals are different than yours, unless you are a vendor.

You should also pay attention to what they are doing and the past and recent successes that they had. It is true that lately Dr. Joshi has been running higher levels of building blocks and he cannot keep all of the different types of acropora that he used to keep - he is pretty honest about this. ...so all of the details matter and if you want to be like him, then buy 3.5x xr30 Radions to replace each MH, raise them up way high, run them at 100% on all channels, keep your N and P higher and just know that not all acropora will make it. You can have a great tank like this, for sure. You have to pay attention to all of the details and not just the ones that support the narrative that you want - we all do this at some level even if unconscious and we don't mean to (human nature). I do not want this because I want to keep those acropora that require different care.

I think that half of the time, people get a false sense of security because some corals can do well for a time before they die... so they thought that what they did was right for a few months when the truth is that they were slowly dying the whole time. Clams are notorious for this. Only significant new growth is a positive positive sign... just keeping stuff alive is something, but not always a great indicator of truly thriving stuff.

I do totally agree with not trying to be like somebody else, but seeking knowledge and using it to find your own path. This can be hard because people rely on message board posts too much and experts and books too little. Take this discussion, for example where people are often misinformed... N and P are technically a nutrient, but they are not fuel or food like most people think where more does more. They are a building block of life where you need just enough, but not too many and more does no good. Fuel comes from sugars from the zoox that the light helps with - more sugars can do more. N and P are only need to built or repair new organic tissue - they are not a nutrient like food/fuel. Think of N and P like bricks at a job site... you only need just enough around to keep the line moving and the workers laying new bricks, which is a slow and steady process. If you have too many bricks laying around, then it gums up the works and makes everything less efficient with import of new materials and export of waste. This metaphor is not 100%, because none are, but you get the point... Every living creature will die with too much N or P, but the level can be really different - the example that I gave before is a good one where my Purple Monster will not thrive as well with N over 1, but other corals do not care at all. Diatoms and dinos will die with higher levels of N or P. Coralline will stop growing as fast. Once you understand this, then what benefit is there of having more than is needed? One benefit could be to kill dinos or diatoms, which I guess can really be good.

Lastly, since we are on the topic of effective N and P management... Most corals prefer to get their N from ammonia and ammonium - this is efficient and easy to access. If they have to use NO3 for nitrogen, then they have to expend extra energy to split up the molecule in the range of 30-50% (forgot where I saw this, but I have seen it a few places) and this is not preferred. All of the people who have always thought that fish food is a superior source to feed coral were right. Dosing N is probably not doing what you think, unless your thought was that it was going to raise a number on a test kit - the corals are still looking for ammonia and ammonium even after you dosed sodium nitrate, or whatever. Combine this with the fact that most po4 that gets dosed in batches just binds to aragonite, then there is little hope that dosing N and P does much at all... and even if it does, it does not do it as well as just feeding fish more. Small steady does of ammonia/ammonium and po4 seem to be the most efficient and best way to feed coral. I am amazed that more people do not dose small amounts of ammonia all day - most people see this as a poison, but it is not any more of a poison than N and P in appropriate levels.

Aminos can be absorbed through the tissue of coral cell walls but also single cell and smooth cell micro organisms. There is some evidence that corals can use this, but little evidence that they can outcompete the bacteria, algae and other waterborne stuff that probably gets to it first. Even if the aminos all get used up before they get to the coral, there is N and P on the backend along with more single cell stuff around for food, so it does probably do something, even if indirect.

/tldr

I wonder how long it takes for fish food to start putting ammonia in the water, and even amino acids ? Like when people cycle a new tank by feeding it or letting a shrimp break down in it. Pumping tanks full of food and keeping them full of food seems to work for many people, and it gets better results in aquaculture.

" This study also provides a lesson for aquaculture. "Feeding leads to a peak in the ammonia production. For the symbiosis between fish and bacteria, it is better if the ammonia production is more constant. It is therefore better to feed often with small amounts than with large amounts once or twice a day. The bacteria -- and therefore the fish -- benefit from this feeding tactic. Nearly all organisms benefit from constancy."

It's pretty easy to find out how much of the food that actually gets eaten turns into ammonia, 18%, but nothing on left over food, or even food that's only in the tank until it gets taken out by the skimmer. I don't think I'd have the guts to dose ammonia, but my tank does seem to run better with multiple feedings.

 

[Fercho]

So based strictly on this thread’s title, there is no single good answer to getting great sps coloration.
I gather from reading this thread that consistency and good, steady combination of params levels ratio is what truly gets the colors to pop.
And that the acro genous/type will dictate how good or well it does in reef system.
Does this sound about right?
Or whats preferable?
Near zero No3 & Po4 levels or somewhat detectable levels such as no3 @10ppm & no4 @ 0.01?

 

[SeaDweller]

So based strictly on this thread’s title, there is no single good answer to getting great sps coloration.
I gather from reading this thread that consistency and good, steady combination of params levels ratio is what truly gets the colors to pop.
And that the acro genous/type will dictate how good or well it does in reef system.
Does this sound about right?
Or whats preferable?
Near zero No3 & Po4 levels or somewhat detectable levels such as no3 @10ppm & no4 @ 0.01?

Unfortunately only you and your tank can decide that, but I'd caution you to not be near zero for these compounds/nutrients/building blocks. It's a fine line you'd be treading if your levels are this low. I'd err on the side of having detectable levels.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

10 no3 and 0.10-0.15 po4 is what I consider ideal for my system