Why are all systems running out of bacteria?

BRS

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OK, so now you are proposing a hypothesis and suggesting I test it. Earlier you said there were studies that proved bacteria in a bottle led to unstable tanks.

Very different.
Don't put anymore bottle bacterial in your tank or any tank ever again and see the unstable of that reef tank. In another tank put ocean water in tank 1 time and see you will have a more stable tank because of balance of the ocean water which bottle bacteria don't have. And that's why you have to keep putting bacteria in a bottle in your reef tank it's not bad but it's why they die off like the subject of title is On headline. Bottle bacteria is not balance to a reef tank but if you put ocean water in the reef tank you get more balance of bacteria.
 
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I certainly agree with the first part, but an alternative view on the last sentence is

Why not let the tank bacteria that thrive best in a given tank do their job in the reef tank, rather than modifying the tank husbandry in a way that may or may not be beneficial but is presumably undesirable for other reasons or the aquarist wouldn't have chosen it in the first place? :)

I guess the question one could ask is does general tank husbandry (regular water changes, substrate stirring/occasional detritus removal) skew the microbiome in a meaningful way? And if so, is it beneficial? Since basic maintenance has been shown for decades to promote a healthy system over extended periods of time (especially so in a high bio mass/water ratio nano/pico reef systems) I would say that it does. And if such maintenance is not overdone, then the periodic disturbance keeps the system in a productive state of dynamic equilibrium. This is also what happens in nature with tidal influences/current changes, upwellings, storms, etc.

What I would say is that the amount of disturbance we do (however that is achieved) should be just enough to keep the system in the above mentioned state of dynamic equilibrium. Finding and maintaining that sometimes elusive balance is a good part of what has often been referred to as 'The art of reef keeping' in various printed material.
 
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Microcosm Reefer

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Might try dosing more phytoplankton...

Fuhrman et al. (1980) have shown that off California there is a good correlation between the distribution of chlorophyll and bacteria on a scale of tens of kilometres. Bacteria also show seasonal patterns of abundance, presumably in response to dissolved organic matter (DOM) released by phytoplankton (Meyer-Reil, 1977; Larsson and Hagstrom 1979)
 
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Might try dosing more phytoplankton...

Fuhrman et al. (1980) have shown that off California there is a good correlation between the distribution of chlorophyll and bacteria on a scale of tens of kilometres. Bacteria also show seasonal patterns of abundance, presumably in response to dissolved organic matter (DOM) released by phytoplankton (Meyer-Reil, 1977; Larsson and Hagstrom 1979)
This has been my thoughts for a wile also, the decomposition of phytoplankton is a good source of nutrients for bacteria.
 

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This has been my thoughts for a wile also, the decomposition of phytoplankton is a good source of nutrients for bacteria.
This is why I do both live and frozen phyto whenever possible. The frozen will decompose faster and will give me the boost as they break down, and the live, once they finish their cycle will also decay which will provide much needed nutrients.
 

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This is why I do both live and frozen phyto whenever possible. The frozen will decompose faster and will give me the boost as they break down, and the live, once they finish their cycle will also decay which will provide much needed nutrients.
Do you not add algae based foods, such as nori?
 
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This is why I do both live and frozen phyto whenever possible. The frozen will decompose faster and will give me the boost as they break down, and the live, once they finish their cycle will also decay which will provide much needed nutrients.
Although the decomposition of phytoplankton could be good to increase heterotrophic bacteria that feeds on organic carbon that may help outcompete nuisances like Cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates, I’m starting to think that the extra Organic carbon release by phytoplankton if added on a regular basis could be detrimental for a stable reef. The increase in the availability of organic carbon can remove the balance of a tank and change the dominant species in a aquarium.
 

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Although the decomposition of phytoplankton could be good to increase heterotrophic bacteria that feeds on organic carbon that may help outcompete nuisances like Cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates, I’m starting to think that the extra Organic carbon release by phytoplankton if added on a regular basis could be detrimental for a stable reef. The increase in the availability of organic carbon can remove the balance of a tank and change the dominant species in a aquarium.

Its possible - I havent seen any adverse effects as of yet, but these may take time to develop.

I have pretty basic logic on this - Phyto is a key building block for the oceans and reefs, therefore its likely my tank needs it. I look for anecdotal signs as to whether its creating issues or not - like supporting lifeforms such as copepods and amphipods, snails (naturally occurring) etc - and their overall health. Also I look for film collection on the glass of my tank. If that all seems well, and nothing else is out of balance, I generally think its doing fine.

Of course this goes hand in hand with regular testing of basics like NO3, PO4, Alk, Salinity, temp etc to get a gauge for the tank. I also regularly look at my refugium to see how the critters are doing.
 
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sixty_reefer

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Its possible - I havent seen any adverse effects as of yet, but these may take time to develop.

I have pretty basic logic on this - Phyto is a key building block for the oceans and reefs, therefore its likely my tank needs it. I look for anecdotal signs as to whether its creating issues or not - like supporting lifeforms such as copepods and amphipods, snails (naturally occurring) etc - and their overall health. Also I look for film collection on the glass of my tank. If that all seems well, and nothing else is out of balance, I generally think its doing fine.

Of course this goes hand in hand with regular testing of basics like NO3, PO4, Alk, Salinity, temp etc to get a gauge for the tank. I also regularly look at my refugium to see how the critters are doing.
It’s only a theory based on my experience with phytoplankton, on my previously dosing regime I started slow and eventually increasing my daily dose until I reached 250ml a day, first 8 months I was through the moon with the benefits after that it went down hill as Organic carbon become available in the water column I couldn’t counter react the decrease in nutrient, at one point it was taking almost 40ppm of nitrates to just keep the nitrates at a detectable point.
I’m starting to believe that the first stage of decomposition is
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Don't put anymore bottle bacterial in your tank or any tank ever again and see the unstable of that reef tank. In another tank put ocean water in tank 1 time and see you will have a more stable tank because of balance of the ocean water which bottle bacteria don't have. And that's why you have to keep putting bacteria in a bottle in your reef tank it's not bad but it's why they die off like the subject of title is On headline. Bottle bacteria is not balance to a reef tank but if you put ocean water in the reef tank you get more balance of bacteria.

I see no reason to believe that assertion, and it seems to not be supported by many reef2reef members that have used bottled bacteria.
 

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It’s only a theory based on my experience with phytoplankton, on my previously dosing regime I started slow and eventually increasing my daily dose until I reached 250ml a day, first 8 months I was through the moon with the benefits after that it went down hill as Organic carbon become available in the water column I couldn’t counter react the decrease in nutrient, at one point it was taking almost 40ppm of nitrates to just keep the nitrates at a detectable point.
I’m starting to believe that the first stage of decomposition is
Im keeping mine to 60-70 ml a day which is less than 10ml/gallon.
 

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It’s only a theory based on my experience with phytoplankton, on my previously dosing regime I started slow and eventually increasing my daily dose until I reached 250ml a day, first 8 months I was through the moon with the benefits after that it went down hill as Organic carbon become available in the water column I couldn’t counter react the decrease in nutrient, at one point it was taking almost 40ppm of nitrates to just keep the nitrates at a detectable point.
I’m starting to believe that the first stage of decomposition is
I'm curious - have you ever tried 'stopping' phytoplankton? The reason I ask is that I don't ever use it - and haven't ever seen any 'need' to use it - except for perhaps 'advertisements' from various companies. Likewise for bacteria. I have used it to 'cycle' a tank but have never added it regularly (for the reasons already stated).

One problem with all of these discussions IMHO - is that there is so much variability in each tank (filtration, UV, lighting, varieties of fish, coral, inverts - where all of the living things (including "live rock" came from. Everything added to the tank will create its own little 'biome' inside that particular tank. Can you necessarily say what's happening on a microscopic level - that will apply to reef tanks in general - I doubt it.

One example - I sent multiple Aquabiomics samples (simultaneously) - about 10 of them - some were controls, some were taken as recommended in the directions - and others were then in different areas. The results - the control samples were absolutely correct. The samples taken from the ares recommended were showed very little diversity. However samples taken directly after stirring the water around the rock and sampling - showed some of the highest diversity ever tested.
 
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I'm curious - have you ever tried 'stopping' phytoplankton? The reason I ask is that I don't ever use it - and haven't ever seen any 'need' to use it - except for perhaps 'advertisements' from various companies. Likewise for bacteria. I have used it to 'cycle' a tank but have never added it regularly (for the reasons already stated).

had to stop 2 years into the experience, everything kinda settled again a few months after.
One problem with all of these discussions IMHO - is that there is so much variability in each tank (filtration, UV, lighting, varieties of fish, coral, inverts - where all of the living things (including "live rock" came from. Everything added to the tank will create its own little 'biome' inside that particular tank. Can you necessarily say what's happening on a microscopic level - that will apply to reef tanks in general - I doubt it.
If someone is adding the recommended doses many won’t see any difference at all to a reef tank not even at the pod level they don’t need phytoplankton to thrive in a aquarium.
After all this years messing around with phytoplankton I think that only a couple of the ingredients are beneficial for a reef tank, will be testing them soon on my new build.


One example - I sent multiple Aquabiomics samples (simultaneously) - about 10 of them - some were controls, some were taken as recommended in the directions - and others were then in different areas. The results - the control samples were absolutely correct. The samples taken from the ares recommended were showed very little diversity. However samples taken directly after stirring the water around the rock and sampling - showed some of the highest diversity ever tested.
most of our bacteria settles and lives on surfaces Imo
 

Timfish

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I don't see it as the bacteria are disapearing. There's lots of stuff being promoted by the macro organisms in the systems and what hobbyests do also alters the populations of the microbial stuff. There's always good stuff and there's always bad stuff. Question is what we're doing promoting the good stuff or the bad stuff. Not sure if this has been posted yet and it seems releavent but this study shows microbial stuff is in constant flux in a closed system and didn't correlate to the stability seen in nature:

 
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