Why are there so many sick fish?????

[lewis.maryann08]

Yeah same here but using copper is new to me and I am so afraid I wont do it right and I dont want to hurt my fish ... just nerves lol

 

[Humblefish]

I'm sorry so many fish have to die and people's hard earned money is lost; but IME suffering a wipeout is sometimes the only way to learn the importance of QT. It just doesn't sink in any other way. I've been giving advice on forums for years now, and the worst thing I could do is get pushy or become demeaning when it comes to QT. That usually just causes the person on the other end to dig in their heels and resist any advice I dole out. It's great to read and listen and ask questions, but at the end of the day we mostly learn by committing mistakes.

 

[Debramb]

Oh

Brew my first dives were with trilobites so I have been underwater for a long time. That was before we even had air.
I want my fish exposed to parasites, plague, diphtheria and the common cold. It's what makes "Man" fish out of them, not Sissy fish that get Girly man ich. My fish know they are not allowed to get ich.
When I was in Nam it was a court marshal offense to get malaria so I teach my fish the same rules. No Sissy ich.

Debra, my hammer would go perfectly with your nail salon because everyone knows hammers go with nails.

Oh no,Paul B, now you're acting like my husband Lol his fish philosophy is the more you fiddle with them, you screw it up!

 

[tcarter1936]

So,I keep struggling with one thought and that's if I add pods to my tank after my fallow period which is over in 15 days, don't I run just as much risk of adding ich or velvet to my tank or are people actually qt ING pods for 72 days which I don't see how considering you must feed the pods any advice on this

 

[Paul B]

Yes you do. And if you want to use any natural sea water you will have to quarantine that or if someone gives you a coral or fish, you have to quarantine that. If you run a quarantined tank, you will have to quarantine everything as quarantined fish don't have immunity from diseases so you must be very careful not to introduce any.
That's why there are two ways to run a tank. If you want to quarantine then at least keep your fish as healthy as possible by feeding correctly and flakes and pellets is not correct. All Noobs should quarantine for a few reasons. New tanks are never healthy and Noobs don't have the experience to be able to tell a sick fish from a healthy one. Healthy fish are always spawning. The normal state for a female fish is pregnant and if they are not pregnant, they are not healthy. That will rarely happen in a new tank as the bacteria which conditions the water is not of sufficient quality or quantity to keep the water in the correct state and most Noobs will not feed correctly. Fish need "live" bacteria in their food which correlates to a healthy immune system. That is a little tougher to do in a quarantined system because of the risk of an infection. Flakes and pellets are sterile so if you must feed that, at least feed as much frozen food as you can. If your fish are not living to their normal lifespan, which in the case of clownfish is about 25 years, you are failing as fish should only die from jumping out or old age. If you lived in a town where everyone died as children, would you want to live there?
That's how the majority of tanks are run and there is no reason for it. Fish have a very well designed immune system and they should almost never get sick. Mine don't so neither should yours. Most of it comes down to food and bacteria.

Debra, your husband is correct, stop fiddling around with the fish. Forget all that testing and tweeking. The fish know what they are doing and just want us to leave them alone so they can watch National Geographic, but not the shows about sharks or Polar Bears. That scares them as does Rap music.

 

[Paul B]

[QUOTE="
Reefs are not free of bacteria, viruses and parasites. In fact, they are loaded with them. The problem is when we want our display tanks to look like these pristine, sterile environments. Anyone who has gone scuba diving knows that isn't what you find in the ocean.[/QUOTE]

I recently took this in Key Largo. (actually I think my SCUBA partner took it) But anyway, see the growth all over the roots. That is called mulm and it is a combination of dying organic matter, bacteria and probably little pieces of Colombus underwear. It is not sterile and neither should our tanks. There is no need to siphon out every little piece of detritus as it is the bacteria that run our tanks, we are just there to go to Starbucks.


This was taken in the Caribbean. Notice all the fish fry which is like an all you can eat buffet and is what most fish eat constantly. Also notice the mulm and hair algae growing. That stuff grows on every healthy reef and is full of live bacteria and possibly Amilia Airheart's shoe.


I took this 2 years ago off one of the remote Hawaiian Islands, I think Lanai. There is a moray eel in the center but I want you to see the growth on the rocks. No one siphons this reef and it is fine.


Don't put one of these in your tank unless you quarantine it. They are very common in Hawaii but are a lousy clean up crew.

 

[meir]

In my area, I do not know of any stores that offer a money back guarantee on salt water fish.
It seems to be a very fast moving revolving door, some fish barely make it out of the bag and they are back out the door, ha probably better to just get them before they leave the bag at that rate?
The fish almost always have some type of spots on their fins. So I know those tanks are never free of disease.
If my store had a tank that strictly had only qt fish in it and they guaranteed them to be disease free, money back guarantee, lets say 7 days, I would pay more for a fish from that tank (seperate system tank of course!) than I would for a fish in the next tank over that is connected to all those other tanks. AND then I would still qt them at home for 2-3 months!
So my point is, I think we ALL would pay more for a healthy fish that came with a guarantee of its health! Simple concept. No risk to the consumer, and for thier efforts the store owner gets to charge more for the fish.

Personally I prefer that my fish don't go into the fs DT, as not to have them come into contact with other stuff in their DT (unless obviously I trust the store) so either I have the store keep it in the bag but call me the day the order is supposed to arrive so I'll be there or my personal lfs that I usually go to, he keeps a qt for my orders being that I'm a constant customer, I'm not saying that it works for everyone in just putting it out there what some of the benefits cld be of the fish not being in the fs DT, but coming in and going out

 

[meir]

I did not read every post on here but it is true. Most posts are about sick fish. I don't think that is the retailers fault, I think it is ours.
I realize 99.9% of the people on here, especially Humblefish will disagree with me but my fish never get sick. I never have to quarantine, I never lose fish and I have no medications or crystal balls.
Well I do have a crystal ball but I only use it to find Supermodels
I think, and it is only my opinion, that most people don't have a natural enough tank and they don't feed properly. Tanks are to sterile and the food many of us feed is to sterile sterility equals sick fish.
Our fish come to us with a degree of immunity that is weakened because of capture, transport, holding, acclimating and selling. If we get the proper foods into fish immediately, their immunity will protect the fish from disease.
It has worked for me for decades and I am not that smart, so it should work for anyone. I can add anything I want from any LFS or the ocean and nothing will happen. Why not?
Now I will go and hide under a table because I don't want to get hit by all the arrows coming my way. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

What foods do you feed your fish, also I've been trying of not goin crazy to have a perfectly sterile tank and I gotta say it works my fish have been left in the care of my parents while I'm off in school yet every month when I come home they're happier and healthier then ever, yet my parents don't know the first thing about sw fish or how to test or dose. All I told/showed them was how to run the basics, like the lights, the heater, the filter, and feeding the fish. Although I do have a hair algae problem right now but I've decided not to go crazy and scrub my rock and add chemicals to kill it just going to buy a more advanced cuc but other then that my tank is flourishing thx to your method[emoji4] oh and also I've put in natural things from the ocean like nice seaweeds, which all died, or so I thought but recently I've found baby sprouts of those same seaweeds in my tank so I'm hoping they look good

 

[MamaLovesHerReefTank]

I am fortunate enough to live in Louisiana within a few hours of @seth&angelle store and can say his fish are super healthy. 3 of 5 fish came from his store and I was lucky enough to get Sally the sailfin from @Humblefish on my way back from a vacation trip. It makes me sick when I go into other stores and see all of the sick fish being sold in these days. Seth have you considered selling online? I think what would hurt you with that beijg so far from airport. I hope more LFS become more responsible!

Dave

I finally learned my lesson about a qt after losing most of my livestock, not once, but twice. It is a must have in my opinion.

I should state that I don't treat while in qt. I feed them well (although not as well as Paul B) and I watch them. I give them time to relax without any extra stress. They stay in qt for 4 weeks. If they are looking good and have put on some weight, then they go into my dt. Just like with people, if they are never exposed to illnesses to build up their immunity and fed a healthy diet, they usually can't fight anything off without medication.

 

[ebushrow]

Ok....so this thread is getting a bit volatile....I have a few things I can add. I do not own a wholesale location or a store however, I do know several of each (friends work at). So here is from my understanding and experience

Wholesaler -
Buys 90 boxes of fish a day ( average 100 fish per box - not always true) - has ~25% loss upon opening each box...
~15-20% loss overnight. So now they are down 50% of their money (No recourse...they eat ALL the costs). Divers never return money for fish they shipped.
So the 1.00 fish is now 2.00 just to cover loss...1.00 for shipping...Now it is 3.00 to cover costs....then what about profits?

3.00 chromis - (1.00 fish+1.00 loss recoup+ 1.00 shipping) 30.00 for a 30 day QT - 10.00 for employees/rent/electricity/profit = 43.00

They have orders to ship from all over the world - a limited QT is 30 days.....How big of a facility would a wholesaler have to buy/rent/use to accommodate that....ENORMOUS - Then, nobody gets fish for an extended period of time and the LFS goes out of business due to lack of stock and lack of money....Who pays for that?

I only know of 1 wholesaler that has ever QT'ed fish beefore they were offered for sale....they went OUT OF BUSINESS -

LFS -
- If they received these fish that were QT'ed - Astronomically Higher price!
- What about the fish that that get sick due to shipping stress???? Then another 30 day QT....what do they sell in the meanwhile?
-------ALL fish have the potential to develop ICK - Almost a proven fact (Almost because not all people believe that due to conflicting research studies) --------
You will see a even larger mark up in price....as one said before $1.00 per day plus meds....hummmm a 43.00 chromis ~30 days of QT 30.00 - meds for ICK 3.00......Chromis would be 76.00 ------NO ONE WILL BUY A 76.00 CHROMIS!.....so as people have said...I'll pay more... I CALL BS!

So say a LFS gets them for 5.00 un-Qt'ed by the wholesaler. Now you have 30.00 for QT, 3.00 for meds and assume a 25% loss of livestock - 5.00 fish+30.00 qt+3.00 meds+1.00 loss+1.00 shipping = 40.00 with no profit for the store...50% holding (costs, employee pay, rent, electricity, water, salt built into the 30.00 qt) - then 25% profit - $50.00 green chromis! I guarantee that nobody will spend that on a green chromis! If you would I would pay you the $50.00 for being wrong.

In the end here is the problem IMO - The ability to ship fish quickly from over the world has made us greedy for specific species/colors/ etc. Thus more fish are coming in and need to be turned over at a rate that would blow your mind....it is illogical to assume the QT falls on anyone outside of the consumer. If you want a constant change in stock at LFS and want different types of fish from all over the world, this is just how it is and will be.
Here are the facts -
- YOU want new types of fish
- YOU want fish from X or size X - You want more colorful fish
- YOU want them to be disease free
- YOU want your LFS to have a changing stock
- YOU need to pay for it
Who is going to pay 50.00 to 76.00 for a green chromis - or 200.00-300.00 for a flame angel? NO ONE!!!! - and the LFS goes out of business.....

....but nobody takes responsibility... They want to blame it up the chain....its ludicrous.

 

[meir]

Ok....so this thread is getting a bit volatile....I have a few things I can add. I do not own a wholesale location or a store however, I do know several of each (friends work at). So here is from my understanding and experience

Wholesaler -
Buys 90 boxes of fish a day ( average 100 fish per box - not always true) - has ~25% loss upon opening each box...
~15-20% loss overnight. So now they are down 50% of their money (No recourse...they eat ALL the costs). Divers never return money for fish they shipped.
So the 1.00 fish is now 2.00 just to cover loss...1.00 for shipping...Now it is 3.00 to cover costs....then what about profits?

3.00 chromis - (1.00 fish+1.00 loss recoup+ 1.00 shipping) 30.00 for a 30 day QT - 10.00 for employees/rent/electricity/profit = 43.00

They have orders to ship from all over the world - a limited QT is 30 days.....How big of a facility would a wholesaler have to buy/rent/use to accommodate that....ENORMOUS - Then, nobody gets fish for an extended period of time and the LFS goes out of business due to lack of stock and lack of money....Who pays for that?

I only know of 1 wholesaler that has ever QT'ed fish beefore they were offered for sale....they went OUT OF BUSINESS -

LFS -
- If they received these fish that were QT'ed - Astronomically Higher price!
- What about the fish that that get sick due to shipping stress???? Then another 30 day QT....what do they sell in the meanwhile?
-------ALL fish have the potential to develop ICK - Almost a proven fact (Almost because not all people believe that due to conflicting research studies) --------
You will see a even larger mark up in price....as one said before $1.00 per day plus meds....hummmm a 43.00 chromis ~30 days of QT 30.00 - meds for ICK 3.00......Chromis would be 76.00 ------NO ONE WILL BUY A 76.00 CHROMIS!.....so as people have said...I'll pay more... I CALL BS!

So say a LFS gets them for 5.00 un-Qt'ed by the wholesaler. Now you have 30.00 for QT, 3.00 for meds and assume a 25% loss of livestock - 5.00 fish+30.00 qt+3.00 meds+1.00 loss+1.00 shipping = 40.00 with no profit for the store...50% holding (costs, employee pay, rent, electricity, water, salt built into the 30.00 qt) - then 25% profit - $50.00 green chromis! I guarantee that nobody will spend that on a green chromis! If you would I would pay you the $50.00 for being wrong.

In the end here is the problem IMO - The ability to ship fish quickly from over the world has made us greedy for specific species/colors/ etc. Thus more fish are coming in and need to be turned over at a rate that would blow your mind....it is illogical to assume the QT falls on anyone outside of the consumer. If you want a constant change in stock at LFS and want different types of fish from all over the world, this is just how it is and will be.
Here are the facts -
- YOU want new types of fish
- YOU want fish from X or size X - You want more colorful fish
- YOU want them to be disease free
- YOU want your LFS to have a changing stock
- YOU need to pay for it
Who is going to pay 50.00 to 76.00 for a green chromis - or 200.00-300.00 for a flame angel? NO ONE!!!! - and the LFS goes out of business.....

....but nobody takes responsibility... They want to blame it up the chain....its ludicrous.

Agreed......but....they, even though it's a bit expensive and not always so feasible,can still medicate they fish and not over stock tanks, especially not larger fish such as tangs, grouper, and tusk fish and the like in 20-30 gallon tanks!

 

[Paul B]

What foods do you feed your fish, also I've been trying of not goin crazy to have a perfectly sterile tank and I gotta say it works my fish have been left in the care of my parents while I'm off in school yet every month when I come home they're happier and healthier then ever, yet my parents don't know the first thing about sw fish or how to test or dose. All I told/showed them was how to run the basics, like the lights, the heater, the filter, and feeding the fish. Although I do have a hair algae problem right now but I've decided not to go crazy and scrub my rock and add chemicals to kill it just going to buy a more advanced cuc but other then that my tank is flourishing thx to your method[emoji4] oh and also I've put in natural things from the ocean like nice seaweeds, which all died, or so I thought but recently I've found baby sprouts of those same seaweeds in my tank so I'm hoping they look good

Meir, it is not so much what I feed as much as what I don't feed. I don't feed any dry foods as they are sterile. Generally if a food doesn't need refrigeration it has nothing in it that goes bad or it has preservatives. This holds true for human food also. Except for peanut butter (for some reason) and honey, all healthy foods go bad unless refrigerated. "White" flour doesn't go bad but white flour is not a food. It is a paste and it is never sold unless it is "fortified" with vitamins and minerals. They don't do that because the people who make white flour care about your health, they do it so they can call it food. Look on a package of "white" bread and read all the stuff they have to put in to sell it as food.
Fish, and us depend on gut bacteria to remain healthy. Look it up. We get our gut bacteria from food and different foods will provide us with different bacteria. Our ancestors ate nothing but fresh foods because they had a hard time finding freeze dried or processed foods and when they tried to get to the deli, they were chased by saber tooth tigers so at least they got exercise.
Fish in the sea eat live food and little else. All live foods are filled with live bacteria and covered in parasites and bacteria. The fish they are eating of course have parasites because that's what parasites do, they live on fish. Those live parasites go through the fish and die in their intestines where they are absorbed. Everything in a fish eventually gets to it's kidney where a fish makes it's antibodies. (we use our kidneys for different things and we make most of our antibodies in our bone marrow which fish do not have). Anyway as these parasites, bacteria and viruses go through the kidney, it develops antibodies that circulate in the blood stream and is exuded through it's main defense which is slime. If the fish is not exposed periodically to these pathogens it will have no defense against them which is why there are so many sick fish posts.
Fish come to us with a fantastic immune system which I feel is better than ours. Pathogens are much more prevalent in water than air and a fish breaths water so everything in the water is in the fish.
IMO, if you don't feed fish live bacteria every day or if you quarantine it for an extended time, that fish will have a compromised immune system and will always have a compromised immune system as long as it is kept away from bacteria, parasites and viruses.
To answer your question I feed, every day, live blackworms, clams which I buy live and freeze and some Mysis. I also use LRS foods which also have clams and worms in it. For my pipefish, mandarins and smaller fish I hatch brine shrimp every day.
I have never had to post on a disease forum, I never had to quarantine, my fish die of old age and all my paired fish are spawning including the 25 year olds. Why is that? I am not that smart or lucky as I call Supermodels all the time and they never return my calls.
I don't buy a fish and observe it for a long time to see if it has spots because I know it won't happen and if I do see a few spots on a new fish, I am happy that there is a new parasite to ensure my fish remain immune as they have been for 40 years.
I have kept fish for over 60 years and have been diving with them for almost 50 and I have learned a couple of things about them. When the internet was invented, probably by Al Gore or Brian Williams there were just as many ich problems as there are today. Why is that? If quarantining was the answer, why are there so many posts that read "I quarantined everything in my tank for 3 years and all my fish just died from ich". Or my fish died while in quarantine.
If you take a fish such as a copperband butterfly, many tangs or angels and put it in a bare quarantine tank for 72 days, you are killing it as those types of fish don't take well to that sort of treatment and it will be a miracle if they eat. My tank has always had a copperband. As a matter of fact in my fish log book from the 70s I had copperbands then. I never had problems with them eating because my tank is natural and I feed them what they eat in the sea which is worms.
OK I got nothing else.

 

[meir]

Meir, it is not so much what I feed as much as what I don't feed. I don't feed any dry foods as they are sterile. Generally if a food doesn't need refrigeration it has nothing in it that goes bad or it has preservatives. This holds true for human food also. Except for peanut butter (for some reason) and honey, all healthy foods go bad unless refrigerated. "White" flour doesn't go bad but white flour is not a food. It is a paste and it is never sold unless it is "fortified" with vitamins and minerals. They don't do that because the people who make white flour care about your health, they do it so they can call it food. Look on a package of "white" bread and read all the stuff they have to put in to sell it as food.
Fish, and us depend on gut bacteria to remain healthy. Look it up. We get our gut bacteria from food and different foods will provide us with different bacteria. Our ancestors ate nothing but fresh foods because they had a hard time finding freeze dried or processed foods and when they tried to get to the deli, they were chased by saber tooth tigers so at least they got exercise.
Fish in the sea eat live food and little else. All live foods are filled with live bacteria and covered in parasites and bacteria. The fish they are eating of course have parasites because that's what parasites do, they live on fish. Those live parasites go through the fish and die in their intestines where they are absorbed. Everything in a fish eventually gets to it's kidney where a fish makes it's antibodies. (we use our kidneys for different things and we make most of our antibodies in our bone marrow which fish do not have). Anyway as these parasites, bacteria and viruses go through the kidney, it develops antibodies that circulate in the blood stream and is exuded through it's main defense which is slime. If the fish is not exposed periodically to these pathogens it will have no defense against them which is why there are so many sick fish posts.
Fish come to us with a fantastic immune system which I feel is better than ours. Pathogens are much more prevalent in water than air and a fish breaths water so everything in the water is in the fish.
IMO, if you don't feed fish live bacteria every day or if you quarantine it for an extended time, that fish will have a compromised immune system and will always have a compromised immune system as long as it is kept away from bacteria, parasites and viruses.
To answer your question I feed, every day, live blackworms, clams which I buy live and freeze and some Mysis. I also use LRS foods which also have clams and worms in it. For my pipefish, mandarins and smaller fish I hatch brine shrimp every day.
I have never had to post on a disease forum, I never had to quarantine, my fish die of old age and all my paired fish are spawning including the 25 year olds. Why is that? I am not that smart or lucky as I call Supermodels all the time and they never return my calls.
I don't buy a fish and observe it for a long time to see if it has spots because I know it won't happen and if I do see a few spots on a new fish, I am happy that there is a new parasite to ensure my fish remain immune as they have been for 40 years.
I have kept fish for over 60 years and have been diving with them for almost 50 and I have learned a couple of things about them. When the internet was invented, probably by Al Gore or Brian Williams there were just as many ich problems as there are today. Why is that? If quarantining was the answer, why are there so many posts that read "I quarantined everything in my tank for 3 years and all my fish just died from ich". Or my fish died while in quarantine.
If you take a fish such as a copperband butterfly, many tangs or angels and put it in a bare quarantine tank for 72 days, you are killing it as those types of fish don't take well to that sort of treatment and it will be a miracle if they eat. My tank has always had a copperband. As a matter of fact in my fish log book from the 70s I had copperbands then. I never had problems with them eating because my tank is natural and I feed them what they eat in the sea which is worms.
OK I got nothing else.

Thank you so much!!!!!! Q tho won't freezing the clams look the bacteria isn't it better to keep them alive, also I have clowns a blenny and a goby what foods do u recommend? I personally use frozen brine, misis, and pellets by hikari

 

[meir]

Water changes unlike the view of most ppl I like to leave my water as long as possible so the fish aren't always stressed out and it worked for me, what's ur view on WC

 

[Paul B]

This is the only medication I still have. I probably got it in the early 70s and it is still half full. It is copper 1.25% and formalin 17%. It was made in Yonkers New York and now nothing is made in Yonkers.
I only have it because sometimes I get a fish for free that is so full of parasites that it is almost dead and a store gives it to me before it croaks. I will try to cure it and sometimes I do. But besides that, I don't have any need for medications of any kind.

 

[Paul B]

Meir, freezing the clams won't kill the bacteria. If you notice if the clams thaw out, it will rot and stink. The rotting and stinking is due to the bacteria warming up and waking up. Cooking will kill bacteria but not freezing as long as your not freezing it for a long time like years and as long as it is not irradiated to kill bacteria and parasites like many commercial foods are.
I do feed them fresh also but it is hard to keep a lot of clams fresh for a long time. I also feed live worms every day which are full of bacteria.
I also feel we change way to much water and there is no need for it. Of course I believe in water changes but not to the extent that some people go.
I can only go by my experiences so I maybe completely wrong about everything but I change water about 5 times a year and I said how I feed. I have no problems or diseases so what can I tell you. This is what I do which is why I wrote a book. I wanted to tell of my experiences and show they work. Of course my way is only one way to run a tank. Quarantining and keeping everything sterile is another way. If you feel that is a better system, go with that.

 

[meir]

Meir, freezing the clams won't kill the bacteria. If you notice if the clams thaw out, it will rot and stink. The rotting and stinking is due to the bacteria warming up and waking up. Cooking will kill bacteria but not freezing as long as your not freezing it for a long time like years and as long as it is not irradiated to kill bacteria and parasites like many commercial foods are.
I do feed them fresh also but it is hard to keep a lot of clams fresh for a long time. I also feed live worms every day which are full of bacteria.
I also feel we change way to much water and there is no need for it. Of course I believe in water changes but not to the extent that some people go.
I can only go by my experiences so I maybe completely wrong about everything but I change water about 5 times a year and I said how I feed. I have no problems or diseases so what can I tell you. This is what I do which is why I wrote a book. I wanted to tell of my experiences and show they work. Of course my way is only one way to run a tank. Quarantining and keeping everything sterile is another way. If you feel that is a better system, go with that.

Personally I like your method and highly recommend it, I rly don't like the sterile tank mostly due to the fact that it looms unnatural and I rly enjoy a natural tank

 

[Paul B]

So do I.
Video at their feeder eating live newborn shrimp


10 year old Watchman with her eggs

 

[meir]

It's beautiful

 

[ebushrow]

Agreed......but....they, even though it's a bit expensive and not always so feasible,can still medicate they fish and not over stock tanks, especially not larger fish such as tangs, grouper, and tusk fish and the like in 20-30 gallon tanks!

again....how big should the warehouses be....and they are only there for a short time that way....who's going to pay for it?