Why are there so many sick fish?????

[Brew12]

This is the only medication I still have. I probably got it in the early 70s and it is still half full. It is copper 1.25% and formalin 17%. It was made in Yonkers New York and now nothing is made in Yonkers.
I only have it because sometimes I get a fish for free that is so full of parasites that it is almost dead and a store gives it to me before it croaks. I will try to cure it and sometimes I do. But besides that, I don't have any need for medications of any kind.

Ok Paul, now you are telling stories! If fish didn't need medicine, why are there so many pharmacies on the reef? And if the reefs you dove on didn't have a Walgreen's, how did you get your pictures developed?

One thing to keep in mind (Which PaulB reminds us of regularly) is that a new tank cannot possibly have the bacteria needed to keep fish healthy. This is where the quarantine and treatment procedures that people like Humblefish have recommended are vital.

I see it as a "boy in the bubble" situation. You can take a person with a compromised immune system and isolate them from pathogens so they can live safely.

If you take a healthy person and isolate them from all the viruses and bacteria, they will loose their resistance to them. At this point their resistance will be just as weak as the person born with a compromised immune system. This is exactly what happened when Europeans visited the Americas. The native populations hadn't been exposed to the same pathogens that the Europeans were carrying with no noticeable impact and it nearly wiped them out.

This is why I am choosing to follow Humblefish's advice on quarantining. I know my tank is too sterile right now not to. I will continue to do so until I am confident that my tank has a healthy enough bacteria, virus, pathogen content to keep fish healthy naturally.

 

[meir]

again....how big should the warehouses be....and they are only there for a short time that way....who's going to pay for it?

I know, I know it's just a bit of wishful thinking

 

[meir]

Ok Paul, now you are telling stories! If fish didn't need medicine, why are there so many pharmacies on the reef? And if the reefs you dove on didn't have a Walgreen's, how did you get your pictures developed?

One thing to keep in mind (Which PaulB reminds us of regularly) is that a new tank cannot possibly have the bacteria needed to keep fish healthy. This is where the quarantine and treatment procedures that people like Humblefish have recommended are vital.

I see it as a "boy in the bubble" situation. You can take a person with a compromised immune system and isolate them from pathogens so they can live safely.

If you take a healthy person and isolate them from all the viruses and bacteria, they will loose their resistance to them. At this point their resistance will be just as weak as the person born with a compromised immune system. This is exactly what happened when Europeans visited the Americas. The native populations hadn't been exposed to the same pathogens that the Europeans were carrying with no noticeable impact and it nearly wiped them out.

This is why I am choosing to follow Humblefish's advice on quarantining. I know my tank is too sterile right now not to. I will continue to do so until I am confident that my tank has a healthy enough bacteria, virus, pathogen content to keep fish healthy naturally.

If your tank is too new that it doesn't have any bacteria wldnt it be the same as your qt

 

[Brew12]

If your tank is too new that it doesn't have any bacteria wldnt it be the same as your qt

It has "some" bacteria. I know it doesn't have enough of the right type. This is why my fish can safely go from my QT to my DT. Both are fairly sterile compared to what you find in the ocean.

Even PaulB utilizes the ocean as a resource to periodically recharge his system in an effort to maintain the correct balance of bacteria/virus/pathogens.

 

[Paul B]

Brew I agree with everything except the Walgreens. Most reefs have CVS Pharmacies.
I do always say that new tanks and Noobs who have tanks should quarantine because of what you said. Humblefish is correct (once in a while anyway ) and quarantining is sometimes the way to go. But not every time and not for everyone.

It's like college. College is not for everyone and sometimes it is better if you do "not" go to college. I get beat up sometimes for that, especially by my wife but I can elaborate. I didn't go to college as I was drafted when I was 18 right out of High School. (my Dad died suddenly when I was 10) After the Army I had to go to work. At 12 years old I was given a job in an auto wrecking yard cutting cars apart with a torch. Try that with a 12 year old today and he will burn his head off and his employer would be arrested. But it was great experience and from that time on I always worked with my hands and made a good living. I became a construction electrician foreman and made a good salary. The most important thing for me was I got home at 3:00. Now I am retired after 40 years and have a pension and free medical for the rest of my life.
If I had gone to college I would have most likely became an electrical engineer making half my salary and getting home at 7 or 8:00, sometimes 10:00 as I see people getting off the train at that time. Those people also have no free medical and no pension so going to college is not the best thing for everyone.
Now don't think I am a Dope. I have been taking courses all my life and read everything. I wrote a book and have two patents. I just want to learn what I want to learn and not what some professor thinks I should learn.
So that's my take on quarantining. (and college) Sometimes it is the best thing to do, but not always.

 

[Paul B]

If your tank is too new that it doesn't have any bacteria wldnt it be the same as your qt

Yes but I wouldn't set up a tank without bacteria. I would make sure there was bacteria all over the place before I put any fish into it. I (and you) are lucke we live near the sea so I go to a bay and collect mud to seed my tank with. I still today add mud all the time even though I am not sure it is still necessary.

 

[meir]

Yes but I wouldn't set up a tank without bacteria. I would make sure there was bacteria all over the place before I put any fish into it. I (and you) are lucke we live near the sea so I go to a bay and collect mud to seed my tank with. I still today add mud all the time even though I am not sure it is still necessary.

I don't use mud as the mid by our parts is filled with oil I use water and plants wich come with a lot of life plus I also go digging for things like small bristle worms and stuff

 

[ebushrow]

Yes but I wouldn't set up a tank without bacteria. I would make sure there was bacteria all over the place before I put any fish into it. I (and you) are lucke we live near the sea so I go to a bay and collect mud to seed my tank with. I still today add mud all the time even though I am not sure it is still necessary.

A lot of QT's arent set up until you get the fish....you have to do water changes to keep ammonia and nitrite down, but you have to do them as well to keep the copper in balance anyways....(I tend to set up a doser to add ammonia and nitrite neutralizers every 12 hours) but as long as you do it daily (and of course not have a ton of fish at the same time) its pretty easy to deal with and keep them safe.

 

[Debramb]

Meir, you dig up Bristleworms ??? Cool, I'm a big worm fan! (Also, Fan of the strain) not Those worms lol I just found out a place to try bloodworms thanks to Cmcoker!

 

[4FordFamily]

To the casual reader, just a reminder: almost all hobbyists do not have the time, talent, or experience to run their reefs as successfully as Paul does without any consideration for fish disease and the vast majority of people that try this methodology end up leaving the hobby and/or killing fish in droves because they cannot replicate his husbandry.

 

[Paul B]

I am a very casual reader. Right now I am in a recliner sipping a Pina Colada with a gentle breeze coming from the salt water swept air. In other words, I'm in my basement.
4FordFamily is correct, not about the talent or good looks (that he didn't mention) but about the fact that if you are a Noob. (and I always say that) maybe you should not use all my methods. (yet)
Quaranting has it's benefits and Noobs should take advantage of those benefits.
I am targeting all the people with some experience and am trying to get some people with an open mind to the place where their fish are very healthy and there are no diseases. It ain't that hard and no one should kill fish. We arguably kill way to many fish and IMO, there is no need for it.
One thing he said was wrong. I don't run my tank (or want you to run your tank) with no consideration for diseases. Diseases, or the lack of them is the point of allowing your fish to become immune, not the other way around.
My husbandry is simple (probably because I am a husband) It's all about food with bacteria in it. That is 95% of my theory.
Many of the people here are probably smarter than I am and if I can keep my fish healthy and safe from diseases through nature's own immune system, anyone can. A Noob is a different animal and a Noob tank is never healthy. Even if I started a tank tomorrow it would not be healthy as it could take a few years until a tank cycles (correctly) to have the proper amount and the proper types of bacteria to keep the fish and corals healthy.
You can quarantine if you feel that is the best way to go, but while you are at it, try to get your fish into breeding condition as fast as you can with the proper foods.

 

[Empress]

@Paul B : Did I read somewhere that you have written a book on this subject? If so, what is the name of the book? I'd like to take a look at it. You've got my interest and I'd like to know more.

 

[meir]

Meir, you dig up Bristleworms ??? Cool, I'm a big worm fan! (Also, Fan of the strain) not Those worms lol I just found out a place to try bloodworms thanks to Cmcoker!

Mini ones the one good for cuc

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B : Did I read somewhere that you have written a book on this subject? If so, what is the name of the book? I'd like to take a look at it. You've got my interest and I'd like to know more.

Yes I did but not just on this subject, it's about reef tanks in general. There is a Reef2Reef thread about it here. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/paul-“paul-b”-baldassano-pens-unique-book-on-marine-aquarium-keeping.216448/
Here are some reviews. http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/reader-review-the-avant-garde-marine-aquarist-6189/

 

[Empress]

So I had to look up avant-garde (it means "New and unusual or experimental ideas"). I have ordered this book just because that's probably you, Paul B on the cover in the snorkel mask. Thanks so much!

 

[Paul B]

My Daughter came up with the name. She also wrote the foreword. This is what she found when she looked up Avant-Garde. (She graduated Fordham with an English and philosophy degree, so I guess she is a philosopher)

" This is the definition of Avant-Garde :"
1.
Noun
“the advance group in any field, especially in the visual, literary, or musical arts, whose works are characterized chiefly by unorthodox, daring and experimental methods”

That is also why the book is not geared to Noobs.
You don't have to read the book as that is not my purpose here. I am here like anyone else, for fun. Everyone has their own methods and many of them work. I was asked to write the book because I was here when the hobby started so I remember the history and all the forgotten methods that came about before computers. I also remember the old school ways that are now totally forgotten, again, because of the internet which is not always the best thing. Too much bad information is worse than too little good information and that is something we have to figure out by ourselves.

 

[Debramb]

To 4Ford, you are right, but for some of us "old timers" all the dosing, tests, vodka, stuff is alittle overwhelming when all us dummies did was water changes and feed. Paul brings common sense ie:food, etc that is useful. I love this site and all the friendly people who are willing to help! I also enjoy the fact that you encourage all input. I've learned so much! Thank-you to all reef2reefers. Debra

 

[Paul B]

There are certainly friendly people here which is why I come on here multiple times a day. Normally I just like to argue with Humblefish but I realize he loves that.
We all come here to try to either learn something or to try to teach something as all of us have some Knowledge in something. My specialty is growing hair.
I am a member of Reef Central but have not posted there in quite a long time as I am tired of getting demerits or whatever they call them for silly things. The Mods here are much nicer and when I post something that I am not supposed to post they just put a bag of dog poop on my porch.
I realize I do post a lot of things I am probably supposed to not post and I am sorry. I talk a lot. My wife tells me that often.
I am old and have a lot of information in my bald head that I want to get out before I croak or forget it all. Of course some of it would be perceived to some as just plain wrong. That is OK, some of it probably is wrong as I am not the God of fish.
But I post what I have actually tried quite a few times or something I learned while visiting our fish under water in their homes. That is the best place to learn what they eat, and how they spend their day.
I talk about copperband butterflies a lot, but I have had one in my tank for almost 40 years. (not the same one, I wish) I also have been keeping mandarins almost as long as I still have my log book from about 1975 or so.
Keeping one or two specimens of a creature in a tank for a couple of years may not tell you the most important things about that creature.

I helped build the New York City Playboy Club and I ran Penthouse Magazine's office construction. I also worked a few Victoria Secret photo shoots so I know a few things about Supermodels but I never found out their secret.
If I post something I try to add pictures to prove it or at least give some credibility to it. I don't like to repeat rumors so I never post them. Almost all of this hobby is run by rumors. How many posts do we see about adding cleaner shrimp to cure ich? Or cyano comes about from lack of circulation, or window cleaner can diffuse through glass to kill the fish. No, really!!! someone posted that.
There is a lot of talent on this site (Cough, cough, Humblefish is one of them, cough!!!) I am jealous of some tanks on here but be careful when you see a beautiful tank. Anyone can have a really beautiful tank if you take an empty tank and throw thousands of dollars at it. I also did a job for Michael Bloomberg in Manhattan. Their office has 3 or 4 beautiful reef tanks that are professionally taken care of. But Bloomberg has unlimited funds so the aquarium shop that takes care of their tanks replaces the fish and corals every couple of weeks because no one feeds them. We don't want a tank like that. We want an ecosystem that sustains itself with no problems. Life has enough problems so we don't need to make more. A tank is supposed to be fun and relaxing and if it is not. You know where your garbage can is.
(I always look for opportunities to post my Grand Daughter's picture)

 

[Empress]

You talk like a New Yorker. You probably have a heavy accent too. Cute granddaughter. GO PATRIOTS!!! Tom Brady and the Gronk are MY supermodels. [emoji886]

 

[Debramb]

Thanks Paul, she outshines your beautiful tank!