Why isn’t TTM 9 days?

Shilpan Patel

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Hey guys!
I’ve been using TTM for a year and a half now, been working well for me (I love having an ich free DT) and since I started using DT water only I’ve never lost a fish.

I was reading up on TTM again since I haven’t done it for 6 months and I can’t work out why it’s 12 days?? The ich takes 3-7 days to fall off the fish, so fish into a bucket for 3 days and then first transfer (completed 3 days) and then second transfer (completed 6 days) and then by the time you do your third transfer into the fourth bucket you’ve now completed 9 days. So all the ich must’ve fallen off. So why do we wait another 3 days in this fourth bucket? Why not just go straight into the QT for observation? Wouldn’t it reduce stress? Once less netting and moving and you’re already 2 days beyond the ich life cycle on the fish anyway?
 

Ron Reefman

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bump

Maybe just being ultra conservative?
 

Ron Reefman

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#reefsquad

I'd offer to help, but in 20 years I've never had a fish get ich. Sorry.
 

Ron Reefman

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Ron,
That is truly amazing!!! You must have a strict QT process......

More often than not, I do a few days in a holding tank for some fish. Usually just to watch them and no meds ever. Sometimes they go straight into the DT. I do introduce a fair number of wild collected animals, including an occasional fish, to my DT. I often wonder if that might be bringing something good into the system? The only fish issue I've ever had is a PJ Cardinal with pop-eye. And before I put a screen on the tank, I've had a few tile surfers that didn't get found quick enough to save. BTW, I do tend to stay away from the few fish that I think are more prone to getting ich. And I don't allow much stress due to aggression in the tank. Aggressive fish get pulled and moved on.
 

nereefpat

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That's a good question to which I don't have a great answer. I've asked too.

Part of it is being conservative, covering all your bases, adding in some 'fudge factor' or whatever you want to call it. If you're going through all that work, you want to make darn sure you aren't missing one little trophont, so you go a little extra long. You know how you go to the Dr for a sinus infection, and you get an antibiotic, and you take it for 14 days even though you are cured after 72 hours? I think that's part of the thinking here.

I think another part of it is accounting for any theronts (swimmers looking for a host) in the water in the bag. The theronts, in my understanding can live a day or two while looking for a host. And you're never going to get every drop of water off the fish when transferring, so adding an extra 48 hours to the original 7 days gets you to 9 days. I have also seen articles (credible?) that list 3-9 days for the feeding stage, so now you are at 11 days total.

Copper is another method commonly used to treat ich. The consensus here is 14 days for best practice, where theoretically it should take the same amount of time as TTM, and 7+ days should *probably* do it.

I have seen lots of threads where people state "I'm on my 3rd transfer and I'm still seeing ich." I think that is not likely, but probably better safe than sorry for some people.

Hope that helps. Maybe @Jay Hemdal can give an opinion. I'm not sure if he's a TTM method guy or not.
 

Jay Hemdal

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That's a good question to which I don't have a great answer. I've asked too.

Part of it is being conservative, covering all your bases, adding in some 'fudge factor' or whatever you want to call it. If you're going through all that work, you want to make darn sure you aren't missing one little trophont, so you go a little extra long. You know how you go to the Dr for a sinus infection, and you get an antibiotic, and you take it for 14 days even though you are cured after 72 hours? I think that's part of the thinking here.

I think another part of it is accounting for any theronts (swimmers looking for a host) in the water in the bag. The theronts, in my understanding can live a day or two while looking for a host. And you're never going to get every drop of water off the fish when transferring, so adding an extra 48 hours to the original 7 days gets you to 9 days. I have also seen articles (credible?) that list 3-9 days for the feeding stage, so now you are at 11 days total.

Copper is another method commonly used to treat ich. The consensus here is 14 days for best practice, where theoretically it should take the same amount of time as TTM, and 7+ days should *probably* do it.

I have seen lots of threads where people state "I'm on my 3rd transfer and I'm still seeing ich." I think that is not likely, but probably better safe than sorry for some people.

Hope that helps. Maybe @Jay Hemdal can give an opinion. I'm not sure if he's a TTM method guy or not.
Sorry, I’m not a proponent of TTM. I can’t use it myself as my quarantine tanks are 800 gallons. I think the handling of the fish is too disruptive, and the lack of any microbiome in the buckets is also problematic. TTM also does not control flukes, which is a big issue. Finally, I’m just not convinced that protozoans have such a dogmatic timing phase, there has always been suspicions that Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium can use the host for all of the cycle in a few instances, enough to keep the cycle going.
Ultimately though, since I can’t use it myself, I have no opportunity to test and refine the method like I do in other cases.
Jay
 

nereefpat

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Sorry, I’m not a proponent of TTM. I can’t use it myself as my quarantine tanks are 800 gallons. I think the handling of the fish is too disruptive, and the lack of any microbiome in the buckets is also problematic. TTM also does not control flukes, which is a big issue. Finally, I’m just not convinced that protozoans have such a dogmatic timing phase, there has always been suspicions that Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium can use the host for all of the cycle in a few instances, enough to keep the cycle going.
Ultimately though, since I can’t use it myself, I have no opportunity to test and refine the method like I do in other cases.
Jay
Thanks for responding. If TTM is used as a 'one-stop' before the display tank, you definitely should combine the method with Prazi to help cover flukes.
 

Reefahholic

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I’ve been doing 2-3 transfers with medication for years now. If medication is combined it speeds up the process, because if any parasites happen to be swimming in the water column that weren’t removed by the transfer- They will be crippled from the therapeutic copper and unable to seek out a fish host like they would w/o the use of medication. It’s kinda like spraying somebody in the face with pepper spray. They tend to stop fighting at that point. The 4 transfers is really just a safeguard. Just remember that TTM is for Ich only. If you have Velvet you literally have to transfer daily sometimes to get it under control specially in a smaller QT of 5-10 gallons.

I also dip the fish on the transfer days and run higher temps in my QT to speed up the life cycle. It’s been bulletproof for a long time now.
 

nkarisny

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I always do 5 transfers anyway just to make double sure. Use a RED square plastic Colander rather than a net, and do transfer at night, fish doesn’t know anything about it
i transfer every three days and feed well so i usually have to transfer more then 5 about 8. then i keep in tubs for 8 weeks transferring more bc i dont have a qt tank . i have huge fish too so water gets dirty fast.
 

nkarisny

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i dont think transfer is that bad on the fish when u get temp salinity and clean water every time. i always fresh water dip w each transfer and talk to the fish .
 

nkarisny

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Sorry, I’m not a proponent of TTM. I can’t use it myself as my quarantine tanks are 800 gallons. I think the handling of the fish is too disruptive, and the lack of any microbiome in the buckets is also problematic. TTM also does not control flukes, which is a big issue. Finally, I’m just not convinced that protozoans have such a dogmatic timing phase, there has always been suspicions that Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium can use the host for all of the cycle in a few instances, enough to keep the cycle going.
Ultimately though, since I can’t use it myself, I have no opportunity to test and refine the method like I do in other cases.
Jay
flukes u clean treat w fresh water dip i thought and med . And ich transfer method works bc my fish don't itch at all after . my problem is trying to get ICH it out of 215 main tank. i have main tank up to 90 now no fish or inverts. will see if this works . ill keep transferring fish for another 2 moths every three days . i have found as long as u talk to the fish , feed well , keep temp the same and salinity fish will be fine. seems like fish bond after the transfer methods . fish are a little standoffish after they are added back to main tank but after a while they come to top to eat and interact with me .
 

Jay Hemdal

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flukes u clean treat w fresh water dip i thought and med . And ich transfer method works bc my fish don't itch at all after . my problem is trying to get ICH it out of 215 main tank. i have main tank up to 90 now no fish or inverts. will see if this works . ill keep transferring fish for another 2 moths every three days . i have found as long as u talk to the fish , feed well , keep temp the same and salinity fish will be fine. seems like fish bond after the transfer methods . fish are a little standoffish after they are added back to main tank but after a while they come to top to eat and interact with me .
Freshwater dips don’t control flukes 100%, they are best used as a diagnostic tool and to buy some time until a proper treatment can be started.
Did you mean months instead of moths? That seems like a very long time to run TTM.
Jay
 

nkarisny

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Freshwater dips don’t control flukes 100%, they are best used as a diagnostic tool and to buy some time until a proper treatment can be started.
Did you mean months instead of moths? That seems like a very long time to run TTM.
Jay
MAIN TANK IS BEING TEMP RASIED TO 90 AND FALLOW FOR 12WEEKS !!I CANT ADD THEM BACK AND IN ORDER TO KEEP WATER QUALITY GOOD I HAVE TO TRANSFER . FLUKES I SAID FRESH WATER DIPS WITH MED . FRESH WATER IS A GOOD WAY TO RELIEVE FISH TEMPORARILY.
 

Jay Hemdal

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MAIN TANK IS BEING TEMP RASIED TO 90 AND FALLOW FOR 12WEEKS !!I CANT ADD THEM BACK AND IN ORDER TO KEEP WATER QUALITY GOOD I HAVE TO TRANSFER . FLUKES I SAID FRESH WATER DIPS WITH MED . FRESH WATER IS A GOOD WAY TO RELIEVE FISH TEMPORARILY.

There isn't any reference indicating that 12 week fallow period is ever required. much less at 90 degrees. Even the lengthy 76 day idea came from a suspect study and was an extreme example at low temperatures in xeric culture.

Why not just sterilize the tank with peroxide and reestablish the biofilter? That can be done in half the time.

Jay
 

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