Why no electrolysis or hydrogen dosing to raise pH?

[KenRexford]

As I was thinking on this, I started to chuckle. If you recall the movie Idiocracy, the cure to everything was supposed to be electrolytes from "Brawndo," which when put on plants obviously killed the plants. So, maybe my idea is for pouring Brawndo into my tank, with expected bad results.

However, as electrolysis seems to break H2O into oxygen (plants and animals love oxygen) and Hydrogen (pH rises with more hydrogen), it seemed somewhat intuitive that maybe that aspect of hydrolysis might be good for reef tanks, both to raise pH and to raise oxygen, both of which seem good. Granted, bubbling out would not gain anything, but maybe a "hydrolysis reactor" attachment might somehow keep the oxygen and hydrogen in solution, maybe in the ATO or something, to raise pH?

The obvious problem seems to be that NaCl when used as the medium apparently causes free chlorine also, which is great for swimming pools but not so much for reef tanks. However, that's when I thought about the ATO, where maybe the ATO water could be made hyper-base water early enough for the Na and Cl to group back together, or gas off, or something. Or, maybe some reactor device could somehow use some sort of mechanism or something to clean out the bad stuff before the hydrogen and oxygen went into the tank (like a magnet to catch the sodium, gas off the chlorine).

On that note, why not just simply dose hydrogen gas (other than the obvious Hindenburg tank risk)?

There has to be an obvious reason why all of this is nuts, but it might be fun for someone with knowledge to point out how ignorant my thinking truly is.

 

[arking_mark]

Following

 

[BadSquishy]

I mean… there are easier ways.. but I think the main issue would be:
Live open wires + saltwater + the general public = inevitable disaster

edit: typos

 

[Uzidaisies]

Do you mean electrolysis like direct current? Maybe I’m the idiot, but exposing living animals and the equipment in the water to direct current sounds bad. I’m not too keen on how electricity even works to be honest. lol.

 

[KenRexford]

OK, so far, the objections seem easily remediable. If this could somehow work, you just have an electrolysis reactor where the water is pumped in and out by way of silicon tubing (non-conductive), with the electricity arcing between two points in the chamber. I cannot imagine that an arcing of electricity over, say, a 1mm gap deep within an external reactor would allow much in the way of stray voltage to pass into the tank through the tubing. But, if it does, then the solution for that would seem to be a completely separated reactor.

I mean, imagine a system where water is pumped into the reaction chamber top but actually drips in so that there is no direct stream. Similarly, the water drips into the tank. Maybe "drips" being pre-measured larger amounts (think those wave-maker dumping things). You pump water into a mini-bucket, which spills like a kid's water park bucket into a chamber. The chamber, outside the tank, then fills a second "bucket" over the sump. The buckets fill and empty quickly enough, and are small enough, to avoid ATO devices going berzerk.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Doesn’t pH drop with more hydrogen since pH is inversely proportional to hydrogen ions ?!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, so far, the objections seem easily remediable.

No, it would likely be a disaster, and not help pH (assuming both electrodes were in the tank).

A little science clears this up.

First, pH has absolutely nothing to do with O2 or H2 (hydrogen) levels. Adding O2 or H2 will not boost pH and removing it does not lower pH.

The only things that determine pH in 35 ppt seawater at a fixed temperature are the carbonate alkalinity and the level of CO2. Together, they can mathematically determine the pH.

Second, H2 and O2 are NOT the only things that form from electrolysis of seawater. Chlorine (Cl2) is formed, and that would kill the tank.

A step closer to sustainable energy from seawater

The research group led by Leiden chemist Marc Koper has discovered a catalyst that minimizes the production of chlorine gas during salt water electrolysis. The invention can enable the direct production of hydrogen from seawater. The article has been published in the Journal of the American...

phys.org

"In the electrolysis of salt water, such as seawater, the ultimate goal is to produce hydrogen at the cathode," explains Ph.D. student Jan Vos from the Leiden Institute of Chemistry. "The product formed at the anode is ideally oxygen, because that is harmless to the environment." However, during salt water electrolysis toxic chlorine gas can also form at the anode."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Doesn’t pH drop with more hydrogen since pH is inversely proportional to hydrogen ions ?!

The product is hydrogen gas, H2, not H+.

It might lead to a big fire when it explodes, but it won't alter pH.

Both the fact that H2 doesn't impact pH, and burns faster than almost anything are reasons to not simply add H2 from any other source.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would add that folks have done electrolysis of seawater in the open ocean to help nearby corals grow, but that is not readily translated to a closed reef tank.

The chemistry of that effect is discussed here:

Reef Restoration Using Seawater Electrolysis in Jamaica

Reef Restoration Using Seawater Electrolysis in Jamaica

"The stimulation of calcareous organisms of all types on the artificial reef, and the relative paucity of non-calcifying organisms, is probably largely due to the boost the former receive from locally alkaline conditions, which allow them to grow their skeletons at lower energetic cost because they do not have to use metabolic energy to pump protons away from calcification sites to maintain internal pH homeostasis "

 

[christhereefer]

This is great thinking! You’re right that electrolysis “ breaks “ water but it breaks down water to H2 gas and O2 gas and would just bubble out of the tank. Also you’re logic about adding hydrogen to increase pH isn’t right. If you add H ions (H+) ions then your pH would decrease (more acidic). And there are studies that investigates the health benefits of adding H2 gas to drinking water, which is pretty interesting. But, I don’t know how it would affect marine organisms?

 

[Jubei2006]

Ever see a plug react to saltwater going in it? What if someone forgets and sticks their bare hand into said tank woth electrolysis going on? Say a kid? And chlorine gas if enough is released could kill more than just the tank. Just use kalk or sodium bicarb and call it a day

 

[taricha]

Thanks for the thread. It's fun knowing why a bad idea is bad.
I usually learn a lot from my bad ideas, thanks for sharing yours.

 

[KenRexford]

Ok, what about a controlled burst of radiation from plutonium to excite the hydrogen?

 

[MabuyaQ]

Ok, what about a controlled burst of radiation from plutonium to excite the hydrogen?

Don't think superhero suits and capes come in fish sizes so this may be a problem.

 

[paintman]

Marty, plutonium is a little hard to come by in 2021! The only thing capable of producing the 1.21 gigga watts of energy to work the flux capicitor, is a bolt of lightning.

 

[taricha]

Ok, what about a controlled burst of radiation from plutonium

Well, as long as it's a "controlled" burst, then I suppose it'll be fine

 

[KenRexford]

Well, as long as it's a "controlled" burst, then I suppose it'll be fine

With Hydros Control, Neptune Apex, and GHL, surely one of them has a plutonium schedule available.

 

[JAC-]

Ok, what about a controlled burst of radiation from plutonium to excite the hydrogen?

If BRS approves it!

 

[fachatga]

The product is hydrogen gas, H2, not H+.

It might lead to a big fire when it explodes, but it won't alter pH.

Both the fact that H2 doesn't impact pH, and burns faster than almost anything are reasons to not simply add H2 from any other source.

Can I guess that the smoke from the resulting fire will lower ph?

I love these conversations. Getting real answers to questions is amazing to have in this hobby.

 

[JAC-]

BTW cheers for thought @KenRexford