Will nitrate at 0 cause birdsnest to die?

[Dburr1014]

Could you give more info on the part about Corals don’t need nitrate in the second bullet point? Is this just for SPS corals?

My nitrates were undetectable for a long time so I started dosing nitrates. 10ml a day to keep it between 4 and 5. I always thought it was my back wall full of GSP that was soaking up all the nitrates. At the same time, my phosphates were .42 at the highest. I did water changes and added phosphate remover and now it’s down significantly. It’s been three days since I added fresh phosphate remover so I’m going to test the water now. I’m expecting somewhere in the .1 to .15 range. I will update later.

If coral were given a choice between ammonia/ammonium or nitrates, that would use ammonia/ammonium.
Nitrates are the final product we test for because we can't really test for ammonium.
Coral can use nitrates if no ammonia is available but at a cost of extra energy. They need to convert it back to ammonium to uptake.

I'm also zero nitrate. I feed heavy to a bunch of fish and they feed my coral. I would like to be able to have 1pmm nitrate but it's not happening yet.

 

[Dburr1014]

At the same time, my phosphates were .42 at the highest. I did water changes and added phosphate remover and now it’s down significantly. It’s been three days since I added fresh phosphate remover so I’m going to test the water now. I’m expecting somewhere in the .1 to .15 range. I will update later.

It takes a good while to get phosphate down.
It's locked up in rock and sand.
It will desorb from the rock as the water column lowers.

 

[Badblackdog]

It takes a good while to get phosphate down.
It's locked up in rock and sand.
It will desorb from the rock as the water column lowers.

I must have a good bit of phosphate, locked up in my sand and rock. Thanks for the advice on that.

I put a fresh bag of Phos-guard Monday night, phosphates were .21. Thursday Phosphates tested at .05. I removed the bag of phos-guard Thursday night. I tested again this morning and it was already back up to .15. I am going to put the phosguard back in the tank and keep testing.

 

[Badblackdog]

If coral were given a choice between ammonia/ammonium or nitrates, that would use ammonia/ammonium.
Nitrates are the final product we test for because we can't really test for ammonium.
Coral can use nitrates if no ammonia is available but at a cost of extra energy. They need to convert it back to ammonium to uptake.

I'm also zero nitrate. I feed heavy to a bunch of fish and they feed my coral. I would like to be able to have 1pmm nitrate but it's not happening yet.

Thanks for the explanation about nitrates and ammonium. Do higher nitrates equate to higher ammonium?

 

[Dburr1014]

Thanks for the explanation about nitrates and ammonium. Do higher nitrates equate to higher ammonium?

Nope.
Ammonia(nitrogen) converts to nitrate. Nitrate is what we test. It does tell you you have enough nitrogen in the system.

 

[rishma]

I must have a good bit of phosphate, locked up in my sand and rock. Thanks for the advice on that.

I put a fresh bag of Phos-guard Monday night, phosphates were .21. Thursday Phosphates tested at .05. I removed the bag of phos-guard Thursday night. I tested again this morning and it was already back up to .15. I am going to put the phosguard back in the tank and keep testing.

I’ve been through the yo-yo many times. What I found works best is using a very small amount of phosphate removing media, and let the level drop slow. When the phosphate level stops dropping, I’ll add another very small amount of media.

By taking the time to do it slowly, I find that when I reach my target levels I don’t get the jump back up when I remove the media.

 

[crappie]

Quick update a month later…
First birdsnest is definitely beyond survival, should I remove it? The other 2 birdsnests are showing the same symptoms and will probably completely die. I tried fraging a couple pieces but they died. Everything else appears to be doing fine.

Parameters
Nitrate 12.4
Phos .04
Ca 400
Alk 9.9
Mg 1240
Ph 8.3
Salinity 1.026

Now dosing ammonium Bicarbonate 20ml/day and Neophos 10ml/day to maintain 5-10 nitrate and increase phosphate, I will increase to 20ml/day neophos to get phosphate up more.

I noticed the Alk has been increasing with the new dosing and I’ve had to reduce my alk dosing. Maybe because the birdsnest is no longer using it.

Any other suggestions on what I should be testing that would point to why 3 separate birdsnest would die?

 

[Reign1]

Imo, bottoming out nutrients have never existed in the hobby, it’s a new thing invented by marketing to sell unseasoned and inexperienced hobbyists. People follow the advice of the “guy” with dieing corals and hobby test kits that read 0, then add inorganic no3 and a few corals don’t die and he thinks he solved something.

As being an old school reefer you do have a great point . Back then everyone was shooting for low or undetectable nitrate and phosphate .. corals were still growing and there were nice reefs out there .. hobby has shifted philosophies

 

[Dburr1014]

Quick update a month later…
First birdsnest is definitely beyond survival, should I remove it? The other 2 birdsnests are showing the same symptoms and will probably completely die. I tried fraging a couple pieces but they died. Everything else appears to be doing fine.

Parameters
Nitrate 12.4
Phos .04
Ca 400
Alk 9.9
Mg 1240
Ph 8.3
Salinity 1.026

Now dosing ammonium Bicarbonate 20ml/day and Neophos 10ml/day to maintain 5-10 nitrate and increase phosphate, I will increase to 20ml/day neophos to get phosphate up more.

Stop with the ammonium.
5ppm if on the high level with that po4 you have more than double that.

I noticed the Alk has been increasing with the new dosing and I’ve had to reduce my alk dosing. Maybe because the birdsnest is no longer using it.

Most likely. When they're growing they are alkalinity monsters.

Any other suggestions on what I should be testing that would point to why 3 separate birdsnest would die?

You're probably not going to like what I'm going to say, but your tank is becoming unstable.

It's always been said, nothing happens fast in a reef tank.

Your po4 is at the bottom level and your NO3 is at the top level and you're dosing both. With your alkalinity High your po4 needs to be much higher. Nutrients is probably or should be closer to 1:1 or at most 1:10

They're probably become people coming on here telling me I'm crazy with the nutrients at that ratio.

 

[crappie]

Stop with the ammonium.
5ppm if on the high level with that po4 you have more than double that.

Most likely. When they're growing they are alkalinity monsters.

You're probably not going to like what I'm going to say, but your tank is becoming unstable.

It's always been said, nothing happens fast in a reef tank.

Your po4 is at the bottom level and your NO3 is at the top level and you're dosing both. With your alkalinity High your po4 needs to be much higher. Nutrients is probably or should be closer to 1:1 or at most 1:10

They're probably become people coming on here telling me I'm crazy with the nutrients at that ratio.

I am trying to stop the birdsnest from dying. Do you have any recommendations or suggestions on why only this coral is dying?

 

[Dburr1014]

I am trying to stop the birdsnest from dying. Do you have any recommendations or suggestions on why only this coral is dying?

Hmmmm, maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Stop dosing ammonium.

Get the tank stable

Raise po4 slowly

Stop adding alk until it comes down. Preferably between 7 and 8 dkh.


One more thing, keep your flow up so it doesn't get any algae on it.

 

[CHSUB]

As being an old school reefer you do have a great point . Back then everyone was shooting for low or undetectable nitrate and phosphate .. corals were still growing and there were nice reefs out there .. hobby has shifted philosophies

I’m not sure “old school reefer” is a flattering term…haha! Back then we did try to mimic nature and I still do, but low or undetectable was seldom if ever achieved. It was only 0 on flawed hobby test kits which was far from true 0. Today with supercharged bacteria colonies achieved with carbon dosing or zeolites corals could starve, however the OP is not using either. 15 years ago the advice might be LED lights are killing his birdsnests, but we know now that is not true; hopefully in a few years most will realize 0 no3 on a hobby test kit is not “bad”?

 

[CHSUB]

I am trying to stop the birdsnest from dying. Do you have any recommendations or suggestions on why only this coral is dying?

Eric Borneman writes, “Pachyclavularia Violacea(green star polyps) possesses significant terpenoid and diterpenoid compounds.” This could harm a bird nest and you have a lot. I always run active carbon in mixed reef to minimize soft coral contamination. Are you; and changing it every couple of weeks?

 

[crappie]

Eric Borneman writes, “Pachyclavularia Violacea(green star polyps) possesses significant terpenoid and diterpenoid compounds.” This could harm a bird nest and you have a lot. I always run active carbon in mixed reef to minimize soft coral contamination. Are you; and changing it every couple of weeks?

No I’m not running any carbon. All I have is a skimmer for filtration so I’d have to add a reactor or do you think I could drop a bag of chemipure in the octo1000 hob skimmer? I don’t have a sump.

 

[crappie]

Eric Borneman writes, “Pachyclavularia Violacea(green star polyps) possesses significant terpenoid and diterpenoid compounds.” This could harm a bird nest and you have a lot. I always run active carbon in mixed reef to minimize soft coral contamination. Are you; and changing it every couple of weeks?

After looking up Eric Borneman and GSP, it sounds like this could be my main issue! I’m in the process of upgrading the 40 to a 75 with a sump and I will probably sell most of the GSP and isolate it to a small rock and trim it when it needs it

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

GAC would work well for those compounds, if they are present in the water. Maybe other organic binders such as Purigen or Chemipure will also help.

Personally, I'm not convinced this is the explanation.

 

[Reign1]

I’m not sure “old school reefer” is a flattering term…haha! Back then we did try to mimic nature and I still do, but low or undetectable was seldom if ever achieved. It was only 0 on flawed hobby test kits which was far from true 0. Today with supercharged bacteria colonies achieved with carbon dosing or zeolites corals could starve, however the OP is not using either. 15 years ago the advice might be LED lights are killing his birdsnests, but we know now that is not true; hopefully in a few years most will realize 0 no3 on a hobby test kit is not “bad”?

How would that be offensive? Information and technology have pushed this hobby along quite a bit last 10-15 years. I get that the hobby test kits in back then weren't great but most reefers now make sure we have nitrate and phospate in our system not only for coral health but to ensure undesirable algae doesnt grow. This is a shift in the philosophies as we also are ICP testing to confirm water quality.

 

[CHSUB]

How would that be offensive? Information and technology have pushed this hobby along quite a bit last 10-15 years. I get that the hobby test kits in back then weren't great but most reefers now make sure we have nitrate and phospate in our system not only for coral health but to ensure undesirable algae doesnt grow. This is a shift in the philosophies as we also are ICP testing to confirm water quality.

Not offensive, notice haha. Most reefers now are misinformed, my recent icp confirmed I have no3 and po4 while Hanna and Salifert show 0. Most of the people giving advice are regurgitating info and not using experience. I was away from message boards when RC all but died a few years ago and imo most experienced hobbyists don’t bother commenting anymore. Lots of “bad” info on inorganic nutrients.

 

[Pod_01]

do you think I could drop a bag of chemipure in the octo1000 hob skimmer?

I run GAC in a bag that is located in a filter media cup (replaces filter socks).
Since you don’t have a sump I would not run it inside skimmer. You don’t want GAC to be agitated and bounce around. The bouncing may release dust particles and those are suspected to lead to issues with fish health.
I think reactor and slow flow is what will work best in your case.

Good luck,

 

[crappie]

Just a quick update incase someone has birdsnest or other corals dying like I did in the original post.

Check your pumps throughly!

I can’t confirm 100% that flow was my issue but I’m pretty sure it was my problem all along.

To make a long story short, I found one of the MP10’s intermittently not working!

I ended up upgrading the 40 to a 75 and bought all new equipment and everything seems to be coming back to life! I did loose the first birdsnest, the second one looks fragable now, and the third one went from 80percent white with flesh hanging off to 80 percent back to normal! I also had a few other corals that I don’t know the names of go from clearly having issues, completely white in the bottoms and no polyps to now polyps on the bottom and nearly all the white being covered up! I know with the upgrade there are many variables but I’m pretty sure it was the flow the entire time. I moved over all the livestock except the sand. I bought new live sand and dry Marco rock. I will post a couple before and current photos. A lot of improvement in coral health in just a few short months!
Also I stopped trying to increase nitrate and phosphate because everything seems to be doing fine and was actually getting worse while doing it. Maybe I was doing too much to fast with not enough water flow. I am feeding a bit more but now that I have a sump I can remove the uneaten food easily.