Would Seahorses be a mistake in my tank?

[saltyfilmfolks]

I have a 45 gallon with a DSB. The DSB is 10 years old. It gets a light vacuuming maybe once every 2 years. It is old school and many don't like them as they can be a phosphate sink. I never had an issue with that. The BIGGEST problem with DSB is the aquarium now smaller.. My adult tank is overstocked. Well beyond what most would recommend. I have 6 seahorses and a pipefish in a 45 gallon. I keep acros and lps in the tank including some that are supposed problems with seahorses. I experiment with the rules as many of the Seahorse keeping rules are very old and not very accurate.

SH are very sloppy eaters with a primitive digestive system. They can increase nitrates and phosphates and bacteria (good and bad) quickly if you are not on top of it. This is the reason you want LOTS of live rock and limited macro algaes. Macros, will trap food and it will spoil. The SH can then eat this and get an internal infection that will kill the SH. I am not a fan of the Seahorse and macro algae tanks with very little live rock.

Main causes of SH keeping failures in order
#1 Buying or trying to keep wild caught. Just don't try. Leave this for the SH breeding experts.
#2 Water too warm. H. Erectus are native up to New England. Hot water increases bacteria and it can go out of control
#3. Feeding 1x per day and feeding a lot. Food will rot on the bottom and cause internal infections Feed 2x OR MORE per day.
#4. Not enough bio filter. SH are very messy don't try a small biofilter.
#5. Not watching water quality. Monitor water like it is a SPS tank and treat it as such. Pristine water = healthy live stock
#6 Using Caulerpa as main filter. Caulerpa will go sexual at one point and wipe out the tank.
#7 Not enough flow. Higher flow can keep food suspended and allow SH to eat more.
#8 No clean up crew to quickly eat uneaten food. a couple of nassarius are great

There are many other things that you can do wrong. But IMHO keep pristine water, keep it cold with a nice flow and you have won most (not all) of the battles.

SH are very slow methodical eaters. House them only with fish that are slow methodical eaters. Don't enven think of putting in a spastic tang. Also SH hitch. Anything that can crawl up and eat them needs to be avoided such as urchins and many sea stars. Gobies, pipefish, blennies and such are good. Crabs and shrimps with caution. Small shrimp such as sexy shrimp and such are ok. I have kept sexy shrimp, pom pom crabs and couple of blue legged hermits with not issue. If you do add anything, watch them and make sure they behave.

Many corals are ok. The real boring, xenia, GSP an waving hand are the safest. Gorgonians are ok, the SH may hurt the gorgonian. SPS are OK, the SH may kill the acro from hitching.... No hammers, torches or frogspawns. Many other LPS with caution. I have caulastrea, montipora, Acropora and chalice and have had ZERO issues.


If you notice in my list of reasons for failure, many are related to excess bacteria in rotting food or excess bacteria from poor water quality.

Thank you very much Rick.

 

[Izcuacho]

Hello,

My 2 cents I agree with Rick on all he has said as long as water is kept clean you should not have issues with your list of fish,

Only worry would be urchin since the hitch on to everything and the longspike will most likely kill them. Flame scallop (you should watch out also) and seaapple you have to watch again since they hitch to anything and sea apples dont like anything messing with them (just watch it and as long as its not stressed or dying it will be fine) if it start over inflating than its being bothered.
I have 2 tanks a mixed reef (red sea 250) thats where the sea apple is located at along with LPS SOFTIES ANEMS and fish.

My second tank is a 45 Gallon with 2 pair of horses, 1 pipefish, 1 goby and a pair of harlequim shrimp. I have 2" sandbed, 30-40 lbs of live rock GSP, XENIA (blue & POMPOM) ZOAs, ACANs, CLOVE, LEATHERs, Cauloflower coral and orange crush mushroom, Feather dusters and coco worm.

The biggest thing is to start with captive bred horses (that eat frozen mysis), feed quality mysis (also feed cpl of times a day instead of 1).

There are a cpl of seahorse tankmate charts online to know what you can add with them, but its common sense nothing that can sting or poke them if its soft and doesnt sting its most likely ok. (one thing with sponges is you have to be carefull with Algae depending on your flow and where it is placed (I had a few and had to move them due to hair algae). My flow its about 15 turnover and thats probably the most I would go with them (no powerheads unless its small they hitch onto everything so they can damage there tail). Have even pulled mine from hitching to the overflow.

I have 2 pair and at least in my experience females are more active than males, dont expect them to be swimming around all day like a chromis mine spend alot of time hitched. Also H. Erectus are the hardiest.

Just keep you water clean, I change 5 gallons a week (12%), vacumm the top of the sand for any uneaten food and blast the rock with a turkey baster before the water change to get all the left over food off (bluelegs help with this).

 

[vlangel]

I have a 45 gallon with a DSB. The DSB is 10 years old. It gets a light vacuuming maybe once every 2 years. It is old school and many don't like them as they can be a phosphate sink. I never had an issue with that. The BIGGEST problem with DSB is the aquarium now smaller.. My adult tank is overstocked. Well beyond what most would recommend. I have 6 seahorses and a pipefish in a 45 gallon. I keep acros and lps in the tank including some that are supposed problems with seahorses. I experiment with the rules as many of the Seahorse keeping rules are very old and not very accurate.

SH are very sloppy eaters with a primitive digestive system. They can increase nitrates and phosphates and bacteria (good and bad) quickly if you are not on top of it. This is the reason you want LOTS of live rock and limited macro algaes. Macros, will trap food and it will spoil. The SH can then eat this and get an internal infection that will kill the SH. I am not a fan of the Seahorse and macro algae tanks with very little live rock.

Main causes of SH keeping failures in order
#1 Buying or trying to keep wild caught. Just don't try. Leave this for the SH breeding experts.
#2 Water too warm. H. Erectus are native up to New England. Hot water increases bacteria and it can go out of control
#3. Feeding 1x per day and feeding a lot. Food will rot on the bottom and cause internal infections Feed 2x OR MORE per day.
#4. Not enough bio filter. SH are very messy don't try a small biofilter.
#5. Not watching water quality. Monitor water like it is a SPS tank and treat it as such. Pristine water = healthy live stock
#6 Using Caulerpa as main filter. Caulerpa will go sexual at one point and wipe out the tank.
#7 Not enough flow. Higher flow can keep food suspended and allow SH to eat more.
#8 No clean up crew to quickly eat uneaten food. a couple of nassarius are great

There are many other things that you can do wrong. But IMHO keep pristine water, keep it cold with a nice flow and you have won most (not all) of the battles.

SH are very slow methodical eaters. House them only with fish that are slow methodical eaters. Don't enven think of putting in a spastic tang. Also SH hitch. Anything that can crawl up and eat them needs to be avoided such as urchins and many sea stars. Gobies, pipefish, blennies and such are good. Crabs and shrimps with caution. Small shrimp such as sexy shrimp and such are ok. I have kept sexy shrimp, pom pom crabs and couple of blue legged hermits with not issue. If you do add anything, watch them and make sure they behave.

Many corals are ok. The real boring, xenia, GSP an waving hand are the safest. Gorgonians are ok, the SH may hurt the gorgonian. SPS are OK, the SH may kill the acro from hitching.... No hammers, torches or frogspawns. Many other LPS with caution. I have caulastrea, montipora, Acropora and chalice and have had ZERO issues.


If you notice in my list of reasons for failure, many are related to excess bacteria in rotting food or excess bacteria from poor water quality.

I specifically asked about your DSB because all my tanks have had them until I got into seahorses. I was afraid of mysis getting caught between rock and sand and then a hungry pony finding it once it has begun to decompose.

For that reason I designed my SH tank with a painted bb and a lot of flow, about 22Xs turnover. Some of that flow is directed at the bottom of the tank to keep the mysis suspended. I feed from a feeding bowl too and I do have some peppermint shrimp to clean up stray mysis. My tank runs about 71°F. I only have 3 erectus in a 56 gallon column tank with a 20 gallon sump. I run a SCA-302 skimmer and a fuge with a remote DSB. My DT tank has very large dense LR that is probably 15 years old. I believe I get some denitrification from these very dense rock. I also do (3) 7 gallon water changes every week and syphon out detritus when I see it piling up a couple Xs a week. I do not have any problems with this tank but it looks a little sterile. I have done my best to make it look natural but with a bb, there is only so much you can do. That is why I was curious about your experience with the DSB in your SH tank. I love that they are basically maintenance free. I would also appreciate a 19" deep tank as opposed to a 24" tank where I am up to my armpits, LOL.

When I took down my last DSB that was about 5 years old, it was clean and just as fresh as it could be. I am not afraid of them at all. I maintenanced a tank for a friend whose large predator tank has a 15 year old DSB. Its still going great.

 

[vlangel]

Good question.

My understanding has always been it's not the Dsb bio load but bacterial infection risk.

You are correct, bacterial infection is what we SH keepers worry about. However I worry about sand and rock trapping mysis until it begins to decompose and then a pony getting a bacterial infection of the gut. Also I worry about a DSB getting gunked up from the heavy bioload and then leaching phosphates and creating an algae problem.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

You are correct, bacterial infection is what we SH keepers worry about. However I worry about sand and rock trapping mysis until it begins to decompose and then a pony getting a bacterial infection of the gut. Also I worry about a DSB getting gunked up from the heavy bioload and then leaching phosphates and creating an algae problem.

Exactly. Although , my Dsb in the display is pretty spotless. So I do think there's some myth there. Like sulfer. I've seen more of that in a standard bed or reactor than Dsb in my time here in R2r.
Although I would do the same. Actualy, were I to do SH tank, I would do a reverse under gravel filter.

For a standard SH tank with sump, chunky sand in a thin layer I can stir. And if I needed more bio filter go with ceramic blocks and carbon dose. And I'd still run a UV in line with return pump. That's my instinct anyway from NPS keeping.

 

[Izcuacho]

I specifically asked about your DSB because all my tanks have had them until I got into seahorses. I was afraid of mysis getting caught between rock and sand and then a hungry pony finding it once it has begun to decompose.

For that reason I designed my SH tank with a painted bb and a lot of flow, about 22Xs turnover. Some of that flow is directed at the bottom of the tank to keep the mysis suspended. I feed from a feeding bowl too and I do have some peppermint shrimp to clean up stray mysis. My tank runs about 71°F. I only have 3 erectus in a 56 gallon column tank with a 20 gallon sump. I run a SCA-302 skimmer and a fuge with a remote DSB. My DT tank has very large dense LR that is probably 15 years old. I believe I get some denitrification from these very dense rock. I also do (3) 7 gallon water changes every week and syphon out detritus when I see it piling up a couple Xs a week. I do not have any problems with this tank but it looks a little sterile. I have done my best to make it look natural but with a bb, there is only so much you can do. That is why I was curious about your experience with the DSB in your SH tank. I love that they are basically maintenance free. I would also appreciate a 19" deep tank as opposed to a 24" tank where I am up to my armpits, LOL.

When I took down my last DSB that was about 5 years old, it was clean and just as fresh as it could be. I am not afraid of them at all. I maintenanced a tank for a friend whose large predator tank has a 15 year old DSB. Its still going great.

Would a brittle star and extra peppermints or blue legs help with any left over Mysis during the night?

I do blow the rock with a turkey blaster as left over get caught up and vacuum it off during water changes but honestly I have a brittle star and I know there are a cpl of bristle worms in my tank + 3 peppermint and I don’t see any left over Mysis.

Would a heavier clean up crew help maybe avoid the left over Mysis and still have a DSB? Maybe even vacuuming the sand bed from about 1” from the sand so you can pick up anything loose on top without disturbing the DSB which I know is the point of a DSB (try not to mess with it so it can do it’s job).

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Would a heavier clean up crew help maybe avoid the left over Mysis and still have a DSB? M

Of note, a good running Dsb has a million little arm and holes with critters that keep it clean. So the Dsb houses a whole cuc. Above and beyond snails and crabs.

 

[keddre]

Thanks all, I definitely can't keep the seahorses now because I can't see myself parting with my urchin or hermits.

I'll look into the pipe fish and from what LIMITED knowledge I currently have, I could imagine them chilling in a forest of caulerpa.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

I have had seahorses in a reef with coral for many years. It works after all they live on reefs in the Ocean.

However, you water is too hot. Max temp should be 72F. Next no urchins. They will eat seahorses. Yes, urchins eat anything. SH will hitch onto something and the urchin may inch up that object and attach to the SH. The sH will hitch harder and the urchin will start eating him alive. This happened to a friend of mines SH.

The most important thing is colder water. Next is good water flow, not SPS strong, but good flow. No spastic feeding fish. Only buy captive bred and you should be fine. No strong stinging corals. No anemones. Crabs can be very risky, same issue as urchins.

I breed and raise H. Erectus and have been raising SH for over 14 years.

Was following along on this thread and had a hard time understanding how people were saying SH can't live with any other inhabitants and need a sp. specific/sterile environment, as SHs come from an ocean environment. Very glad to see your comment as I feel it's just common sense. So thanks for posting up.

Of course, I can understand that there are some species not meant to be kept with SHs because they will prey on them.

Main causes of SH keeping failures in order
#1 Buying or trying to keep wild caught. Just don't try. Leave this for the SH breeding experts.

I'm wild catching my inhabitants. There are SHs here but I haven't taken any yet. I am in the process of setting up a SH tank. When this is ready, I was planning to take some for my tank. Can you tell me why you are not recommending wild-caught?

 

[rayjay]

RVW, while many people do succeed keeping seahorses in reef tanks, there are many more that do not succeed. It's not that they others are doing something wrong, although that is extremely possible, it's more that the seahorses themselves are different in their ability to ward off diseases and infections.
We humans have the same problems but medical field has advanced enough that many of us cope better now than years ago. With seahorses, the vulnerable ones do not have the luxury of advanced medical care, and I believe there are more susceptible seahorses than ones that are not. An experienced keeper though has a better chance of success than a new hobbyist and a new hobbyist who has the luck of the draw to get seahorses that have stronger immune systems should also be better off. No way to know until you buy the seahorses though so that is why many recommend the more extreme methods of keeping. It does save seahorse lives.
As for wild caught, as I see it the major drawback is that it is hard to train them to feed on frozen mysis and some will not be trained that way. Of course, you can feed the live foods to the wild caught and raise the offspring to eat frozen. Successive generations could end up with fewer pathogens.
Another possible detriment is that the wild caught ones are more likely to have more pathogenic problems.
If it hadn't been for wild caught though, we wouldn't now have captive bred.

 

[Neil D Yanez]

I was thinking about adding sea horses in my tank, but not being setup for them, I'm not sure if there would be any arguments in my tank. I'm just going to spell out everything and please don't hold back any thoughts.

Technical Specs:
55 gallon
Deep Sand Bed
20 Gallon Fuge
74-76 F
Caulerpa Prolifera

Current Inhabitants:
-Fish
1 Banggai Cardinal (don't mind getting rid of)
1 Watchman goby
1 guppy

-inverts
2 flame scallops
2 coco worms
2 feather dusters
1 long spine urchin
1 pistol shrimp
various snails
various hermit crabs
1 sea apple
1 sea hare

-coral
none

Current Feeding:
a ton of phytoplankton
1 daily cube of "marine cuisine for all saltwater carnivores"

What I would add first:
wider array of macroalgae
branching sponges or a gorgonian coral

Seahorse tank should just be Seahorse tank. They are very slow and picky eaters. Any other fish/ shrimp will eat it all. Gorgonians are very hard to keep alive.

 

[Rick Cavanaugh]

There are several reasons to only get captive bred. The #1 reason is they have been trained to eat frozen mysis from the start. Many try to raise wild caught on live shrimp. It will be close to impossible to do for the long term. Brine shrimp DO NOT have enough nutrition. Many wild caught will not transition to frozen. Some will, but not all.

Seahorses are threaten worldwide, so if really makes not sense to take a threaten species from the ocean when you can get a captive bred Seahorse.

Many will claim disease and parasites. This may or maynot be true. If you buy directly from a SH breeder, they have been in isolated tanks and will most likely have no diseases or parasites. If you purchased at a LFS, they have been exposed to what ever has pass through that store.

A captive bred SH will also have been exposed to less shipping stress. Shipping stress can reduce your chance of success.

As to the SH will always lose out to the food to other fish is not 100% true. Depends on what the fish is. Captive bred SH can be little pigs if kept in a high enough density. I have had juvenile SH and juvenile clowns in the same tank. Captive bred SH won and out ate the clowns. Captive bred SH will also out eat many pipefish and other slow eaters.

The overall success of keeping SH is not reef or no reef or species only or mixed species. It is water quality and food quality and other factors. There are many ways to keep a coral reef and you can argue which is better, but they all can work. It all depends on many factors.

 

[Rick Cavanaugh]

I specifically asked about your DSB because all my tanks have had them until I got into seahorses. I was afraid of mysis getting caught between rock and sand and then a hungry pony finding it once it has begun to decompose.

For that reason I designed my SH tank with a painted bb and a lot of flow, about 22Xs turnover. Some of that flow is directed at the bottom of the tank to keep the mysis suspended. I feed from a feeding bowl too and I do have some peppermint shrimp to clean up stray mysis. My tank runs about 71°F. I only have 3 erectus in a 56 gallon column tank with a 20 gallon sump. I run a SCA-302 skimmer and a fuge with a remote DSB. My DT tank has very large dense LR that is probably 15 years old. I believe I get some denitrification from these very dense rock. I also do (3) 7 gallon water changes every week and syphon out detritus when I see it piling up a couple Xs a week. I do not have any problems with this tank but it looks a little sterile. I have done my best to make it look natural but with a bb, there is only so much you can do. That is why I was curious about your experience with the DSB in your SH tank. I love that they are basically maintenance free. I would also appreciate a 19" deep tank as opposed to a 24" tank where I am up to my armpits, LOL.

When I took down my last DSB that was about 5 years old, it was clean and just as fresh as it could be. I am not afraid of them at all. I maintenanced a tank for a friend whose large predator tank has a 15 year old DSB. Its still going great.

Sounds like you are on the right track, Lots of well aged rock, good flow, skimmer

DSB, SSB and BB all work. Main thing is clean water. There are many ways to acheive this. Personally I do infrequent very large WC and use a DIY algae reactor. Nitrates and Phosphates have been very low. Nitrates <0.5 and phosphates <0.03 Typically phosphates are undetectable.

I see too many seahorse tanks that rely only on algae and low rock levels with no skimmers and water that is so polluted it is cloudy. Tanks just look filthy. Use common sense and the best practices for reef aquariums and you will have much better success. Sump, skimmer, lots of rock and monitor the water conditions. Save money and don't buy a heater unless you live in alaska. Buy cheap amazon fans to increase evaporative cooling.

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

Thanks for the replies.
My situation is a little bit different because I'm overseas. My supply of pods and other live food is pretty much inexhaustible. So I'm not really worried about seahorses not eating. My system will be very well established and able to support much more than seahorses if / when I take some for my tank. In terms of water quality, I use NSW. I doesn't get better than that. I'll probably post a thread when I do it.

 

[vlangel]

Sounds like you are on the right track, Lots of well aged rock, good flow, skimmer

DSB, SSB and BB all work. Main thing is clean water. There are many ways to acheive this. Personally I do infrequent very large WC and use a DIY algae reactor. Nitrates and Phosphates have been very low. Nitrates <0.5 and phosphates <0.03 Typically phosphates are undetectable.

I see too many seahorse tanks that rely only on algae and low rock levels with no skimmers and water that is so polluted it is cloudy. Tanks just look filthy. Use common sense and the best practices for reef aquariums and you will have much better success. Sump, skimmer, lots of rock and monitor the water conditions. Save money and don't buy a heater unless you live in alaska. Buy cheap amazon fans to increase evaporative cooling.

Thanks, I think what I am doing is working quite well as my 3 ponies have been very healthy. Thank you for your opinion on DSBs as previously I had advised against them for seahorses. Who knows, perhaps I will consider one in the future? Although it is hard to change when what I have works well.

 

[Itsander]

Sorry, I'm still reading the stickies here but from what I read so far, this is mostly due to the horses being bullied, out competed for food, or the fish being unable to handle cooler waters. While I would have to drop my tank down still in temperature, I don't think those three things should be an issue. But as I said, I'm still researching and that could quickly change

Out competed for food, they will die from starvation, they are too slow, I run a seahorses tank 3 years ago, for over two years, you definitely need to give a lot of attention to that tank, they are very sensitive and you may get bored really soon, but to be honest the only reason I quit, was they givens birth way to much, I couldn't handle so many baby, at the same time, but if you really wanted go for it, but my recomendation is, have them alone or maybe with a pair of pipe fish. Good luck.