Yellow tang in hospital tank, unsure of issue

[DrZoidburg]

All of these treatments were over 5 day period? This is why I would never use a brand that doesn't tell you what is in it. If it is copper sulfate and after reaction complexes with ammonia toxicity increases. Prime is likely making ammonium sulfate freeing up the copper part. Ammonia in that case could possibly be read by some test kits and still be safe. Reading other places says its chelated copper. There are many ways to "chelate" copper. Can't say anything definitive without knowing actual ingredients. If there is an excess of ammonia it will make some complexes. Also the kanamycin has 4 amine functional groups that could be kicked off in a reaction. Adding to the ammonia in the long run as well as just being in a bare bottom qt. One other thing metro if he ate any while you were not looking possible can cause reduced appetite as well as stress can. Copper, the metro, the ammonia, and the stress can all lead to them not eating. Especially with tangs. Some times just being bit by another fish can cause a fish to flash. Also if the salt isn't mixed enough I've seen flashing from that. He doesn't look skinny to me. Some things to think of are aggression, constipation, other issues. I did look at your other post. Red spot on fin looks gone now. To me this just seems like too much treatment in this time frame and handling of fish. You don't know what is going on but you treat with an arsenal of things? Sorry if that seems coarse. Sometimes doing nothing will be good for a few days. Wait a week and start over with copper and a different choice of med if any red comes back is what I would do. Biggest thing now monitor ammonia and keep up with that in qt in the mean time.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

All of these treatments were over 5 day period? This is why I would never use a brand that doesn't tell you what is in it. If it is copper sulfate and after reaction complexes with ammonia toxicity increases. Prime is likely making ammonium sulfate freeing up the copper part. Ammonia in that case could possibly be read by some test kits and still be safe. Reading other places says its chelated copper. There are many ways to "chelate" copper. Can't say anything definitive without knowing actual ingredients. If there is an excess of ammonia it will make some complexes. Also the kanamycin has 4 amine functional groups that could be kicked off in a reaction. Adding to the ammonia in the long run as well as just being in a bare bottom qt. One other thing metro if he ate any while you were not looking possible can cause reduced appetite as well as stress can. Copper, the metro, the ammonia, and the stress can all lead to them not eating. Especially with tangs. Some times just being bit by another fish can cause a fish to flash. Also if the salt isn't mixed enough I've seen flashing from that. He doesn't look skinny to me. Some things to think of are aggression, constipation, other issues. I did look at your other post. Red spot on fin looks gone now. To me this just seems like too much treatment in this time frame and handling of fish. You don't know what is going on but you treat with an arsenal of things? Sorry if that seems coarse. Sometimes doing nothing will be good for a few days. Wait a week and start over with copper and a different choice of med if any red comes back is what I would do. Biggest thing now monitor ammonia and keep up with that in qt in the mean time.

That's a good point. I've long suspected that using any reducing agent with any of the the three copper products (Cupramine, Copper Power or Copper Safe) could cause a toxic reaction. All three contains ammonia (amines). However, I've not been able to test this idea, as the toxicity doesn't show on copper test kits, it has to be measured by bioassay, and I just can't kill off a bunch of fish to test the idea.

I was told though, that I'm incorrect, that Humblefish says that Copper Power and Copper Safe are O.K. with reducing agents. So, lately I've not been harping on this point. Perhaps I need to just go back and say no ammonia reducers with copper. In the back of my mind, I wonder if that is why I hear about "copper toxicity" from people, where I haven't seen it myself, in over 50 years of using Coppersafe.....the one thing is that I never use ammonia reducers with copper. Maybe that is the wild card?

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

All of these treatments were over 5 day period? This is why I would never use a brand that doesn't tell you what is in it. If it is copper sulfate and after reaction complexes with ammonia toxicity increases. Prime is likely making ammonium sulfate freeing up the copper part. Ammonia in that case could possibly be read by some test kits and still be safe. Reading other places says its chelated copper. There are many ways to "chelate" copper. Can't say anything definitive without knowing actual ingredients. If there is an excess of ammonia it will make some complexes. Also the kanamycin has 4 amine functional groups that could be kicked off in a reaction. Adding to the ammonia in the long run as well as just being in a bare bottom qt. One other thing metro if he ate any while you were not looking possible can cause reduced appetite as well as stress can. Copper, the metro, the ammonia, and the stress can all lead to them not eating. Especially with tangs. Some times just being bit by another fish can cause a fish to flash. Also if the salt isn't mixed enough I've seen flashing from that. He doesn't look skinny to me. Some things to think of are aggression, constipation, other issues. I did look at your other post. Red spot on fin looks gone now. To me this just seems like too much treatment in this time frame and handling of fish. You don't know what is going on but you treat with an arsenal of things? Sorry if that seems coarse. Sometimes doing nothing will be good for a few days. Wait a week and start over with copper and a different choice of med if any red comes back is what I would do. Biggest thing now monitor ammonia and keep up with that in qt in the mean time.

Thanks for all of that information!

Right now it's in copper only. No other medication. I only ran one round of Kanaplex, and tried feeding metroplex once. In terms of ammonia, I read a post by humblefish saying to shine a light from behind. I did that, and it's perfectly yellow, so I am guessing we are ok there.

Are you suggesting I stop copper and just keep in QT for a period of time and monitor?

 

[DrZoidburg]

That's what I would do yes. Someone in other thread suggested red being spot sepsis. If it is bacterial copper might not even be a good treatment. Also further reading it can effect their sense of smell. Could also have something to do with it. Red spot is gone in 2nd picture I looked at. Focus on water quality and getting to feed. Tangs can be skittish. They remember things well. After all this activity he will be scared of you. Rubber band a piece of nori to some media and get far away. If red spot comes back an antibiotic might be best choice.

 

[JustinMN18]

That's what I would do yes. Someone in other thread suggested red being spot sepsis. If it is bacterial copper might not even be a good treatment. Also further reading it can effect their sense of smell. Could also have something to do with it. Red spot is gone in 2nd picture I looked at. Focus on water quality and getting to feed. Tangs can be skittish. They remember things well. After all this activity he will be scared of you. Rubber band a piece of nori to some media and get far away. If red spot comes back an antibiotic might be best choice.

Ok. I will probably go this route. I haven't noticed a single "flashing" experience with the Tang at all while in QT, and based on what Jay has mentioned, it doesn't appear obvious that it's a parasite. And yea, the discoloration that was forming / formed appears to be completely gone. No frayed fins, no colors other than pure yellow again.

I can definitely remove copper with carbon and water changes, and I might have some cuprisorb laying around, and then watch the tang for a few days to see if feeding gets better.

The tang will like pear around a PVC that it's chilling by all the time to basically see if I'm still around, and then it goes back (it's right in the back between the heater and the HOB filter, protected by a PVC pipe in front of it). I try to stay as far away as possible during the day so maybe it'll nibble on something floating by.

I appreciate all of the help I have received on this. Going through this with everyone on this thread has helped my mind relax a bit on what could have happened.

 

[bblumberg]

I'd also try adding some red ogo. Tangs love it and it will not deteriorate much in the water.

 

[DrZoidburg]

@Jay Hemdal Depending on what type the complex is initially, and also depending on the ammonia reducer could make a huge difference. If brand started with just tetraammine copper ii hydroxide, and there was ammonium sulfate before addition of copper because of in this case prime with excess ammonia being generated from other sources. After reactions one could end up with tetraammine copper ii sulfate. There is also nitrate and chloride complexes being possible. Also organic complexes. In salt water there would be a mix of complexes trying to find equilibrium. Each vary in toxicity, even if they had the same amount of copper. Having a hard time finding exposure limits to some of these. One place said 1 mg/m3 sulfate complex versus just the free copper exposure at 10mg. Exposure limits for humans, aquatics would be much less. May be mitigated by using a different reducer, a lot more bio media, or possibly even a different copper salt.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal Depending on what type the complex is initially, and also depending on the ammonia reducer could make a huge difference. If brand started with just tetraammine copper ii hydroxide, and there was ammonium sulfate before addition of copper because of in this case prime with excess ammonia being generated from other sources. After reactions one could end up with tetraammine copper ii sulfate. There is also nitrate and chloride complexes being possible. Also organic complexes. In salt water there would be a mix of complexes trying to find equilibrium. Each vary in toxicity, even if they had the same amount of copper. Having a hard time finding exposure limits to some of these. One place said 1 mg/m3 sulfate complex versus just the free copper exposure at 10mg. Exposure limits for humans, aquatics would be much less. May be mitigated by using a different reducer, a lot more bio media, or possibly even a different copper salt.

The trouble is - none of the copper product manufacturers make their formula's available (I've looked for patent info). Then, all the ammonia reducing product manufacturers are also really coy about their product's formulation. I asked John Kuhns (who invented Amquel) what he thinks, but haven't heard back. I suspect that in the end, the chemistry is just too complicated, and the bioassay test is going to need to be looked at....but that adds a third variable (sensitivity of different fish species to copper).

I think I'm going to just return to telling people not to use ammonia reducers with copper. Safer, and then, I'm not really fond of these products anyway - they are a stop gap measure to correct poor husbandry, and I've noticed (but can't prove) that continued additions of Amquel results is less and less ammonia detoxification over time.

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

So unless something drastic happens, here's my final (hopefully) update.

My tang put pellets in its mouth, appeared to kinda move it around in its mouth, and then spit them out. So didn't swallow food but I haven't seen it even put food in its mouth this whole time. I'm calling it progress.

I put some carbon into the filter this evening (from PetSmart... Not good rox carbon, I didn't have a pouch for it), hoping to start taking copper down. Tomorrow I'll do a water change, and work on getting copper down to 0.

My hope is it will begin eating, and I'm thinking add the tang back into DT in several days, so long as I don't notice any itching, spots, color changes, etc. If I begin to notice redness, do anti bacterial medicine. Itching, copper.

Again, I appreciate you all helping me get through this mentally lol. My fish have been doing so good, and having this happen with the plethora of opinions on Google is tough, and you all helped significantly.

If anything changes or gets worse I'll post again, but I'm hoping that this plan works out and will result in a healthy happy tang.

Justin

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So unless something drastic happens, here's my final (hopefully) update.

My tang put pellets in its mouth, appeared to kinda move it around in its mouth, and then spit them out. So didn't swallow food but I haven't seen it even put food in its mouth this whole time. I'm calling it progress.

I put some carbon into the filter this evening (from PetSmart... Not good rox carbon, I didn't have a pouch for it), hoping to start taking copper down. Tomorrow I'll do a water change, and work on getting copper down to 0.

My hope is it will begin eating, and I'm thinking add the tang back into DT in several days, so long as I don't notice any itching, spots, color changes, etc. If I begin to notice redness, do anti bacterial medicine. Itching, copper.

Again, I appreciate you all helping me get through this mentally lol. My fish have been doing so good, and having this happen with the plethora of opinions on Google is tough, and you all helped significantly.

If anything changes or gets worse I'll post again, but I'm hoping that this plan works out and will result in a healthy happy tang.

Justin

Justin,

Carbon is overrated as a copper remover, and it can also cause HLLE in tangs. Water changes are the very best way to reduce complexed copper from water. You might get Polyfilter to work, or perhaps even cuprisorb.

As far as the tang spitting out pellets - perhaps they are the wrong size or too hard? Have your tried chopped mysids or anything else?

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

Justin,

Carbon is overrated as a copper remover, and it can also cause HLLE in tangs. Water changes are the very best way to reduce complexed copper from water. You might get Polyfilter to work, or perhaps even cuprisorb.

As far as the tang spitting out pellets - perhaps they are the wrong size or too hard? Have your tried chopped mysids or anything else?

Jay

I'll definitely do a nice big water change today, I just wanted to add a little carbon to start the process. I run rox carbon from BRS in a reactor off of my manifold in my DT, so I am hoping it is used to it.

The pellets shouldn't be the wrong size, as that is what I have fed for months for my whole tank, and I even have tried soaking in Selcon and garlic, which softens them, as well as they just sit in the tank right in front of it's face.

I have tried reef frenzy, mysis, and brine.. no success. I typically feed frozen in the morning and pellets at night, and historically the tang has gone crazy for all of it.

I'm noticing the tang going up to the nori and giving attention to food (I will feed shortly after posting this), and I'm hoping that means it's just nervous, which is why it isn't eating.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'll definitely do a nice big water change today, I just wanted to add a little carbon to start the process. I run rox carbon from BRS in a reactor off of my manifold in my DT, so I am hoping it is used to it.

The pellets shouldn't be the wrong size, as that is what I have fed for months for my whole tank, and I even have tried soaking in Selcon and garlic, which softens them, as well as they just sit in the tank right in front of it's face.

I have tried reef frenzy, mysis, and brine.. no success. I typically feed frozen in the morning and pellets at night, and historically the tang has gone crazy for all of it.

I'm noticing the tang going up to the nori and giving attention to food (I will feed shortly after posting this), and I'm hoping that means it's just nervous, which is why it isn't eating.

Could be nervous - try feeding from a darkened room so your presence doesn’t make it more nervous?
Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

Could be nervous - try feeding from a darkened room so your presence doesn’t make it more nervous?
Jay

I just wanted to reply with an update.

I took the tang out of QT this last Friday, and added back to DT. Fingers crossed, but the tang has completely gone back to active swimming, and everyone is very actively eating and being normal. No discoloration, no hiding, no scratching.

I did upgrade from a 15 watt to 25 watt UV during all of this, but not going to say that did anything. I think it was ammonia related, and since then, I have stopped dosing KZ Sponge Power which I read has ammonia in it for clams and other filter feeders.

I'd just like to again say, thanks everyone for their help. It was chaos for me and you all helped me navigate through it.

 

[JustinMN18]

Hey everyone

I was hoping I wouldn't have to come back here, but it seems like after a couple weeks of success, the yellow tang is being weird again.

It hides all day. It looks like it has some discoloration. I don't see the redness that it had before, but it almost seems like the face is changing colors.

The tang doesn't have the white HLLE line, but the face seems to be turning a pale shade.

After QT, the tang was totally normal. Now it doesn't actively eat or swim out. None of my fish are having problems. Not a single fish is showing symptoms of anything. No scratching, everyone is eating very well, parameters are in check, corals are doing great, etc. I've told myself that this time I'm not going to take drastic measures because the last time I handled this, I feel I went too fast.

Here are my most recent parameters, and the equipment I'm running (for HLLE discussion).

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0.2
Phosphate: 0.13
Salinity: 35
Temp 77.5
Alk: 9.3
Calc: 428
Magnesium: 1350

I run carbon in a BRS reactor off of my manifold, as well as a UV (25 watt), protein skimmer, and refugium. I'm dosing All For Reef powder mixed in rodi, as well as NoPOx.

Attached pictures aren't the best, but they were the best I could get. Any thoughts on how to methodically go about figuring this out?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I went back and reviewed this thread, but didn't study it in detail, so this may be partly a rehash:

What other fish are in with it? Any chance some other fish is keeping it hiding?
Is it feeding o.k., or is it still spitting food out?
In the middle picture above, right in front of the caudal spine, the skin looks kind of rough. I've seen that before, but I can't tell you what causes it. YT don't show HLLE like other tangs do they just fade a bit and then their skin sort of erodes. In severe cases, their fins will also erode.

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

I went back and reviewed this thread, but didn't study it in detail, so this may be partly a rehash:

What other fish are in with it? Any chance some other fish is keeping it hiding?
Is it feeding o.k., or is it still spitting food out?
In the middle picture above, right in front of the caudal spine, the skin looks kind of rough. I've seen that before, but I can't tell you what causes it. YT don't show HLLE like other tangs do they just fade a bit and then their skin sort of erodes. In severe cases, their fins will also erode.

Jay

Thanks @Jay Hemdal for your reply, I really appreciate it.

I have a foxface (I'd call it the tang's best friend), a melenarus wrasse, a mccoskers wrasse, two clowns, a fire fish, a royal gramma, a jaw fish, and two hawkfish. I haven't noticed a fish pick on it.

The Tang doesn't appear to actively eat at all. After QT previously it seemed totally normal. I took the Tang out and did 10 days at thetepeutic levels of copper, as well as some anti bacterial meds. After adding the Tang back to the DT, it was acting perfectly. After about two weeks, it was hiding more but pecking at rocks, and now whenever I look at the tank it's hiding under rocks.

Simply, if looks like the tang has some discoloration around the face, and the back side seems weird. It's also not eating actively and not swimming out in the open at all. None of the other fish show symptoms of any parasite, and they all actively swim and eat. The only exception is the Foxface. It eats actively, but definitely hangs out by the Tang, I'd say, 30% of the time.

Sorry for the long winded response. I know you're a busy guy and just trying to basically brain dump everything so you know what I'm seeing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks @Jay Hemdal for your reply, I really appreciate it.

I have a foxface (I'd call it the tang's best friend), a melenarus wrasse, a mccoskers wrasse, two clowns, a fire fish, a royal gramma, a jaw fish, and two hawkfish. I haven't noticed a fish pick on it.

The Tang doesn't appear to actively eat at all. After QT previously it seemed totally normal. I took the Tang out and did 10 days at thetepeutic levels of copper, as well as some anti bacterial meds. After adding the Tang back to the DT, it was acting perfectly. After about two weeks, it was hiding more but pecking at rocks, and now whenever I look at the tank it's hiding under rocks.

Simply, if looks like the tang has some discoloration around the face, and the back side seems weird. It's also not eating actively and not swimming out in the open at all. None of the other fish show symptoms of any parasite, and they all actively swim and eat. The only exception is the Foxface. It eats actively, but definitely hangs out by the Tang, I'd say, 30% of the time.

Sorry for the long winded response. I know you're a busy guy and just trying to basically brain dump everything so you know what I'm seeing.

I just wish I had an answer for you - even if this is HLLE (which I'm not convinced it is) the fish would still be feeding o.k.

Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

Scratching head also here. I can think of 4 things maybe. 1: Watch the foxface. It could be passive aggressively stressing it in some way. 2: What about diet issues over the long term. Give a run through of typical foods/feeding before all this. 3: Being strange but possible. Lack of b vitamins? I don't know in the case of fish but I see your dosing nopox. Ethanol which is in nopox typically causes vitamin b deficiencies in humans maybe the same in fish. Certain foods can cause this too. Maybe even vitamin E 4: Maybe a strange skin reaction to the formate. @Jay Hemdal do you think this to be possible dermatitis? Maybe the red spot in other thread was actually a hemorrhage? Both those and anorexia in fish can be caused from lack of vitamins.

 

[DrZoidburg]

"Another concern regarding excessive vitamin C intake is that it can impair the body's ability to process other nutrients. For example, vitamin C may reduce the levels of vitamin B-12 and copper in the body." google. In the case that the copper product used was stabilized with vitamin c this could also be possible.

 

[JustinMN18]

"Another concern regarding excessive vitamin C intake is that it can impair the body's ability to process other nutrients. For example, vitamin C may reduce the levels of vitamin B-12 and copper in the body." google. In the case that the copper product used was stabilized with vitamin c this could also be possible.

Thanks for the insight into all of that. In terms of feeding, I feed LRS Reef Frenzy in the morning, and historically TDO pellets at night. However, my Melenarus Wrasse has a messed up jaw that is open all the time, which impacts it's ability to eat pellets. So I have been feeding LRS Herbivore Frenzy at night, and some pellets soaked with that.

I honestly have no idea why the Tang could be acting like this. I checked stray voltage the last time this all happened, and I believe I was getting a reading of 0 (assuming I had the probes placed correctly).

It's a bummer. I love the fish and wish it would just swim and be happy. Im kind of thinking maybe stop carbon for a few days and see if that helps.