Yellow tang in hospital tank, unsure of issue

[Jay Hemdal]

Scratching head also here. I can think of 4 things maybe. 1: Watch the foxface. It could be passive aggressively stressing it in some way. 2: What about diet issues over the long term. Give a run through of typical foods/feeding before all this. 3: Being strange but possible. Lack of b vitamins? I don't know in the case of fish but I see your dosing nopox. Ethanol which is in nopox typically causes vitamin b deficiencies in humans maybe the same in fish. Certain foods can cause this too. Maybe even vitamin E 4: Maybe a strange skin reaction to the formate. @Jay Hemdal do you think this to be possible dermatitis? Maybe the red spot in other thread was actually a hemorrhage? Both those and anorexia in fish can be caused from lack of vitamins.

The trouble with symptoms of "vitamin deficiency" is that they literally run the gamut of every possible thing; skin reaction, anorexia, nervous system issues, etc. Years ago, we had our fish diets analyzed by Michigan State University college of veterinary medicine. They found that we were deficient in only vitamin E and Thiamin. Mazuri, an offshoot of Purina found the same thing and they actually makes a vit E/Thiamin fish paste vitamin.

Once a fish gets into a deficient state with vitamins, and goes off feed, how can it be corrected though?

I agree watch the foxface - what may look like it is being a "buddy" it may be a sign of aggression.

I've heard a number of people having issue with Nopox, but they seem to be realted to bacterial blooms and low dissolved oxygen.

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

The trouble with symptoms of "vitamin deficiency" is that they literally run the gamut of every possible thing; skin reaction, anorexia, nervous system issues, etc. Years ago, we had our fish diets analyzed by Michigan State University college of veterinary medicine. They found that we were deficient in only vitamin E and Thiamin. Mazuri, an offshoot of Purina found the same thing and they actually makes a vit E/Thiamin fish paste vitamin.

Once a fish gets into a deficient state with vitamins, and goes off feed, how can it be corrected though?

I agree watch the foxface - what may look like it is being a "buddy" it may be a sign of aggression.

I've heard a number of people having issue with Nopox, but they seem to be realted to bacterial blooms and low dissolved oxygen.

Jay

Interesting stuff about the vitamins. I never thought about that.

In terms of the Foxface and aggression, do you think there would be physical aggression? I haven't noticed the Foxface "go after" the yellow tang at all, it just seems to go sit by it, and the tang doesn't appear to try and leave and go somewhere else. Is it an intimidation thing maybe?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Interesting stuff about the vitamins. I never thought about that.

In terms of the Foxface and aggression, do you think there would be physical aggression? I haven't noticed the Foxface "go after" the yellow tang at all, it just seems to go sit by it, and the tang doesn't appear to try and leave and go somewhere else. Is it an intimidation thing maybe?

Probably not, but we see this in freshwater discus - one discus will just "sit" next to another one and intimidate it and keep it from eating properly. I've not seen this in tangs though....

Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

I can say I have seen this in lots of different fish. Just keeping another in one spot. Won't always notice aggression. You could rule somethings out by keeping tang in another tank. Also move some rocks around possibly. See then if it starts eating. If it does get vitamin rich foods. I guessed b vitamins cause of all that has happened and lack of eating all together. Color loss, maybe hemorrhage, maybe dermatitis, and not eating is suspect to that. Water quality and meds can cause this too though. The pteridine and flavin chemical structure in b vitamins. Riboflavin, folate, cobalamin (b2, b9, b12) and derivatives adds to yellow skin pigments. As well as carotenes, and some aminos. Purely a guess no way to test this from our perspective only observations. @Jay Hemdal If not feeding could inject these directly into a fish. That would require a vet or Dr. though. Looking at reef frenzy ingredients. I see ocean perch and white fish. A lot of baitfish, clams, scallops contain thiaminase which makes b's useless. Also low protein 82% water in this food. Then I look at tdo pellets. Neither of those 2 foods say any vitamins except the tdo says astaxanthin(carotenoid). Honestly cant really think of other reasons fish would be so pale.

 

[JustinMN18]

I can say I have seen this in lots of different fish. Just keeping another in one spot. Won't always notice aggression. You could rule somethings out by keeping tang in another tank. Also move some rocks around possibly. See then if it starts eating. If it does get vitamin rich foods. I guessed b vitamins cause of all that has happened and lack of eating all together. Color loss, maybe hemorrhage, maybe dermatitis, and not eating is suspect to that. Water quality and meds can cause this too though. The pteridine and flavin chemical structure in b vitamins. Riboflavin, folate, cobalamin (b2, b9, b12) and derivatives adds to yellow skin pigments. As well as carotenes, and some aminos. Purely a guess no way to test this from our perspective only observations. @Jay Hemdal If not feeding could inject these directly into a fish. That would require a vet or Dr. though. Looking at reef frenzy ingredients. I see ocean perch and white fish. A lot of baitfish, clams, scallops contain thiaminase which makes b's useless. Also low protein 82% water in this food. Then I look at tdo pellets. Neither of those 2 foods say any vitamins except the tdo says astaxanthin(carotenoid). Honestly cant really think of other reasons fish would be so pale.

It seems like the tang is scratching it's face, very randomly and not consistently. It also sometimes swims weird in the water. Like sideways flashing against the water.

This is what happened previously before taking the fish out and adding to a QT tank, however in the QT tank, the fish didn't exhibit these scratching or weird swimming behaviors.

The face of the fish seems like it's not doing too good. I don't even know how to describe it. Pale? "Rough"? I'm not sure.

I just way reduced the flow of my carbon reactor, and thinking about stopping that all together to see if that helps. I'm just trying to determine when I should pull again for QT vs observe and see if this passes

 

[DrZoidburg]

I'm sorry is it just the face? From pictures above it looked like all fish was pale. If you did move it color comes back, behavior normalizes, and is eating. You could assume it could be somethings in the water if aggression is ruled out. I don't think it would hurt to stop carbon for sometime and see if that alone changes it. The only things that are different in qt are no carbon, and no all for reef?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It seems like the tang is scratching it's face, very randomly and not consistently. It also sometimes swims weird in the water. Like sideways flashing against the water.

This is what happened previously before taking the fish out and adding to a QT tank, however in the QT tank, the fish didn't exhibit these scratching or weird swimming behaviors.

The face of the fish seems like it's not doing too good. I don't even know how to describe it. Pale? "Rough"? I'm not sure.

I just way reduced the flow of my carbon reactor, and thinking about stopping that all together to see if that helps. I'm just trying to determine when I should pull again for QT vs observe and see if this passes

Did we ever consider flukes in this case? Fish don't scratch for no reason, and I read back through things and I saw I mentioned a possible FW dip, but that as far as it went I think....


Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

I'm sorry is it just the face? From pictures above it looked like all fish was pale. If you did move it color comes back, behavior normalizes, and is eating. You could assume it could be somethings in the water if aggression is ruled out. I don't think it would hurt to stop carbon for sometime and see if that alone changes it. The only things that are different in qt are no carbon, and no all for reef?

So the body looks "pale-ish". However the face looks probably the most obvious that something is happening. I know my pictures werent great, but it's hard to get an awesome shot when it's hiding constantly haha.

I checked stray voltage, and I can get readings of 0.000, and I can also get 1.1####. I don't know how or why. It seems the grounding probe moving ever so slightly causes a fluctuation.

In QT I fed exactly what I fed my DT, however it wasn't eating the entire time. That was partly why I moved it back. I believed it was ammonia related.

So I guess I'd say the main difference (besides copper and fluconazole) was no carbon in QT, and no other fish, with using Prime and many water changes. I will say again that in QT, the tang never exhibited any of the same behaviors as I saw initially, and am seeing now. That's what was so confusing. I took a fish that seems weird out of DT, and treated with copper and anti biotics, and from day 1 it stopped acting weird, other than no eating.

After putting the fish back into the DT after about 10ish days, it acted totally normal, and was eating like a champ.

So if no other fish are showing issues at all, but the tang is now showing physical symptoms again, the only thing I can think of at this point is either stray voltage that the tang is super sensitive to, or carbon.

Maybe? I have no idea. I ordered a titanium grounding probe just now from Amazon, and cut back the flow by 60% on the carbon.

Did we ever consider flukes in this case? Fish don't scratch for no reason, and I read back through things and I saw I mentioned a possible FW dip, but that as far as it went I think....


Jay

Hey Jay,

I did a freshwater dip on the Tang on day 2 of quarantine. I didn't see anything at all that resembles flukes from a post that Humblefish shared. Since the Tang wasn't scratching in my QT tank before or after the freshwater dip, I assumed that Flukes isn't the cause. Haha I feel like I'm giving this guy every bit of "googling" I can, and I'm a software engineer lol. I feel like a pro at google, and I can't seem to find a similar situation with a solution that I haven't already tried.

 

[JustinMN18]

Did we ever consider flukes in this case? Fish don't scratch for no reason, and I read back through things and I saw I mentioned a possible FW dip, but that as far as it went I think....


Jay

Here are some additional pictures. I'm using the "pro mode" on my phone, so I can't guarantee that it doesn't add some level of innacuracy with color or texture but these seem close to how it looks in real life.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here are some additional pictures. I'm using the "pro mode" on my phone, so I can't guarantee that it doesn't add some level of innacuracy with color or texture but these seem close to how it looks in real life.

Flukes can’t directly be seen in photos, at best, you can only see the secondary effects - cloudy fins, rough looking skin, etc.
Jay

 

[DrZoidburg]

Could be hlle maybe in a state of remission, and recurrence. Maybe a bunch of other things going on too. One thing usually affects another. These lines don't look picture perfect. Just looking at mine in tank, and a lot of other pictures online. I also tried to replicate different lighting conditions, always looks yellow, and cant get anywhere near color of yours. Is that color close to what it is also under direct white lighting? If you can play with white balance on phone or use a filter that might help. If its like color of when it was in qt video that looks normal. I think I would A: stop the carbon. I am familiar with petco/petsmart carbon. I think its extruded with a calcium binder. Tends to wear away easily. Then see if things change. Not 100% convinced voltage can be a issue especially for just one fish out of all. This one fish has been run through the ringer. In terms of chemicals, stress, diet. B: How big Is tang? Do you have the option to sterilize qt, or another bigger tank and start with a good chunk of rock from dt to avoid ammo issues? No chemicals, meds or anything. This could narrow down some variables. Just focus on water quality, and getting good food. From the sounds of it some variable in main tank aggravating this if not an obvious bacteria or parasite. Aside from other possibilities.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Could be hlle maybe in a state of remission, and recurrence. Maybe a bunch of other things going on too. One thing usually affects another. These lines don't look picture perfect. Just looking at mine in tank, and a lot of other pictures online. I also tried to replicate different lighting conditions, always looks yellow, and cant get anywhere near color of yours. Is that color close to what it is also under direct white lighting? If you can play with white balance on phone or use a filter that might help. If its like color of when it was in qt video that looks normal. I think I would A: stop the carbon. I am familiar with petco/petsmart carbon. I think its extruded with a calcium binder. Tends to wear away easily. Then see if things change. Not 100% convinced voltage can be a issue especially for just one fish out of all. This one fish has been run through the ringer. In terms of chemicals, stress, diet. B: How big Is tang? Do you have the option to sterilize qt, or another bigger tank and start with a good chunk of rock from dt to avoid ammo issues? No chemicals, meds or anything. This could narrow down some variables. Just focus on water quality, and getting good food. From the sounds of it some variable in main tank aggravating this if not an obvious bacteria or parasite. Aside from other possibilities.

Here is an image of a YT with HLLE. You can see that the lesion just look pale yellow as opposed to white in other species of tang. More notable though, is the fin damage:

 

[Fish Think Pink]

Have you tried live macroalgae for your yellow tang? Red Ogo is in stock right now and when my yellow tang weirdly decides it isn't going to eat thawed (Herbivore or) Reef Frenzy that its been eating all along, it *will* devour that macroalgae from a clip.

Red Ogo

At AlgaeBarn we treat, quarantine and inspect all of our CleanMacro™ Live macroalgae. Bright red and burgundy, with sharp and pointy fronds, Red Ogo adds color to any tank or refugium. It is also makes a healthy live seaweed food for herbivorous fishes. See below for more information.

www.algaebarn.com

I also use fish eggs to tempt into eating when my yellow tang's eating habits acting strange, but I have to call around to LFS as only a few carry frozen (though refrigerated Reef Nutrition R.O.E carried by more LFSs near me).

Since HLLE tied to carbon use, I only run carbon when needed, and then for minimum amount of time for whatever I'm treating to minimize harm to my tangs.

 

[brwaldbaum]

Can anemone stings cause this?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Can anemone stings cause this?

Not in my experience, but some carpets pack a real wallop.
Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

So I quit carbon about a week ago, and the fish seems much more active. The top fin is open quite a bit now, which it wasn't before (not sure if good or bad). For the most part it has been fine. But some flashing has been noticed.

Definitely issues with the face, and some discoloration. So activity levels seem to have improved, but physically, it looks rough.

I bought a grounding probe and was thinking about trying that next. But didn't want to start a million different things to try at the same time. @Jay Hemdal any idea?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So I quit carbon about a week ago, and the fish seems much more active. The top fin is open quite a bit now, which it wasn't before (not sure if good or bad). For the most part it has been fine. But some flashing has been noticed.

Definitely issues with the face, and some discoloration. So activity levels seem to have improved, but physically, it looks rough.

I bought a grounding probe and was thinking about trying that next. But didn't want to start a million different things to try at the same time. @Jay Hemdal any idea?

We informally tested induced voltage as a cause for HLLE, and never found any causation. Your tank should be hooked into a GFCI, but a grounding probe won't help with this.

Since the fish is still scratching I think you should try Prazipro. With good aeration, it is pretty safe. Two treatment 7 to 10 days apart. If the scratching stops after the second treatment, it is likely that flukes are the issue.

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

We informally tested induced voltage as a cause for HLLE, and never found any causation. Your tank should be hooked into a GFCI, but a grounding probe won't help with this.

Since the fish is still scratching I think you should try Prazipro. With good aeration, it is pretty safe. Two treatment 7 to 10 days apart. If the scratching stops after the second treatment, it is likely that flukes are the issue.

Jay

Thanks for that information! Would this be something done in the DT? I have an LPS and softy tank with various innverts (clams, urchins, starfish, snails, etc).

I've read that it is, but wondering what you think about it.

Thanks,
Justin

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for that information! Would this be something done in the DT? I have an LPS and softy tank with various innverts (clams, urchins, starfish, snails, etc).

I've read that it is, but wondering what you think about it.

Thanks,
Justin

Yes - you can dose Prazipro with invertebrates. I've heard of it causing problems with feather duster worms, but that seems rare. You must aerate the tank with an airstone, and run your skimmer without its collection cup. Remove any chemical filtration as well.

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

Yes - you can dose Prazipro with invertebrates. I've heard of it causing problems with feather duster worms, but that seems rare. You must aerate the tank with an airstone, and run your skimmer without its collection cup. Remove any chemical filtration as well.

Jay

Cool, I'll give that a try maybe closer to the weekend so I have more time to stay focused on it and pay the most attention I can.

I really appreciate the help.

Justin