OP
OP
YOUR OPINION- are fish truly happy in captivity?
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attiland
2500 Club Member
Not truly happy but happy enough when cared for well. What is true happens anyway? They are intelligent for sure therefore they may feel happiness too but I think happiness for most animals are simpler than what you consider happiness and often short lived or limited to things like there is food or a place to hide or a nice other fisto mate with.
the approach is wrong. Not knowing better doesn’t make it right.
Imagine a chicken lives in a cage. It lives there since it was an egg. It can’t stand up because the cage is small. Is it right to put it in that cage? Is it happy? is it morally ok to put the chicken in that cage? Do I need to continue?
Aquarium is a cage and fish in it may newer new better but morally may not be right to keep them there. I am guilty as you are as I have aquariums nearly 40 years and the best I could do is look after them.
having said all of that I totally agree buy captive bread fish if possible because that is the only sustainable and environmentally friendly way to do so but not because of that is morally ok.
Don’t fool yourself. We have heard this before about dolphins. Than it turned out to be false. (Politely put) Just saying most of the fish we keep have a shorter lifespan in the aquarium.
I doubt my aquarium has educational benefits too. Show off yes educational well that is debatable. I educate my children that this is a fish and this is what it does and the benefit is that they don’t tap on the glass or put a slice of bread in it
is it educational?
BeltedCoyote
Philosopher king of the Memes
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Really though. Ignoring the ontological/existential questions of composition regarding “happiness”
why do we assume that our understanding of happiness, our experience of it, is the measuring stick that’s applicable to other life forms?
why do we assume that our understanding of happiness, our experience of it, is the measuring stick that’s applicable to other life forms?
Smite
2500 Club Member
I understand your point but that's quite the comparison with the extreme chicken cage example, so yes continue the comparison with "free range" chickensNot truly happy but happy enough when cared for well. What is true happens anyway? They are intelligent for sure therefore they may feel happiness too but I think happiness for most animals are simpler than what you consider happiness and often short lived or limited to things like there is food or a place to hide or a nice other fisto mate with.
the approach is wrong. Not knowing better doesn’t make it right.
Imagine a chicken lives in a cage. It lives there since it was an egg. It can’t stand up because the cage is small. Is it right to put it in that cage? Is it happy? is it morally ok to put the chicken in that cage? Do I need to continue?
Aquarium is a cage and fish in it may newer new better but morally may not be right to keep them there. I am guilty as you are as I have aquariums nearly 40 years and the best I could do is look after them.
having said all of that I totally agree buy captive bread fish if possible because that is the only sustainable and environmentally friendly way to do so but not because of that is morally ok.
Don’t fool yourself. We have heard this before about dolphins. Than it turned out to be false. (Politely put) Just saying most of the fish we keep have a shorter lifespan in the aquarium.
I doubt my aquarium has educational benefits too. Show off yes educational well that is debatable. I educate my children that this is a fish and this is what it does and the benefit is that they don’t tap on the glass or put a slice of bread in it
Are they happy? Or just healthier and more natural, much like a fish in an appropriate sized tank with good flow.EDIT:
I do think "not knowing" comes into play. You may know and experience a greater happiness than my version of happiness, based off your individual life experiences differing from mine. But that does not change my individual standard for happiness based of my individual experience.
Last edited:
Smite
2500 Club Member
Now photoshop them all with big ole Gary Busey smiles in their natural habitat, ha!Do you see us smiling?
on another note, what about those high coral prices?
I don't know where I come out on this, but I don't kill fish that often and more live through old age than die before that. They probably would not have done that in the wild where only a select few make it to old age. I also don't take fish that I cannot keep in my tanks for their whole lives, unless I have a plan to get rid of them when it is in their best interest (for free to a large public aquarium - I never get paid since that would limit the places able to make them happy). I rarely get fish that need to be re homed and usually only as a rescue.
I don't know if they are happy, but my fish do not fight, so have to assume though all science that their needs are met since they are not aggressive even with many kinds of tangs, angelfish and other fish that can be aggressive for some people. In the end, I don't think that they are upset being in my home. I have a yellow and purple tang that I got when one of my kids was born, so who knows how old they were when I got them, but she is going to graduate high school this year. I have at least a dozen other fish that I moved here to Colorado more than a decade ago - they were various ages before we moved, of course.
I do feel that this hobby is not defendable with the people who go too fast and are posting "Emergency: Where to Buy Prime" as the gills on their fish are rotting away in the ammonia. If somebody ever saw all of this and banned the hobby, then I would understand. I don't know if my 20 year old fish are the rule or the exception.
I don't know if they are happy, but my fish do not fight, so have to assume though all science that their needs are met since they are not aggressive even with many kinds of tangs, angelfish and other fish that can be aggressive for some people. In the end, I don't think that they are upset being in my home. I have a yellow and purple tang that I got when one of my kids was born, so who knows how old they were when I got them, but she is going to graduate high school this year. I have at least a dozen other fish that I moved here to Colorado more than a decade ago - they were various ages before we moved, of course.
I do feel that this hobby is not defendable with the people who go too fast and are posting "Emergency: Where to Buy Prime" as the gills on their fish are rotting away in the ammonia. If somebody ever saw all of this and banned the hobby, then I would understand. I don't know if my 20 year old fish are the rule or the exception.
c.poindexter
Well-Known Member
I have often plagued myself with this question. That is one reason that going forward that I buy captive breed, not saying that is any better. Captive breed have not know anything else besides being in a tank. I often think that over time they may forget what it is like to be in the wild and adapt to tank life.
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My fish are always complaining... except at dinner lol
KK's Reef
Valuable Member
I sat down with my fish the other day and had a heart to heart. They said that, while things are adequate, I needed to step my game up. Ideally, they want more real estate, but they'd be happy with a full remodel and more amenities. It's worse than having a wife/gf, I tell ya.
GHOSTLY
2500 Club Member
despite being considered peaceful my Purple firefish is the most aggresive. My mandarin is like a laid back hippy
Gregg @ ADP
Valuable Member
Here’s my perspective on it:
Often, at the end of a typical day, I will sit back and reflect on all of the stress I’ve had to endure that day, on all that I’ve had to give of myself to my kids, to my wife, to my students, and to my clients, and on all of the struggles to pay bills and keep things in my life organized and taken care of.
At those times, I often wish I was a fish in a well-cared for aquarium.
Often, at the end of a typical day, I will sit back and reflect on all of the stress I’ve had to endure that day, on all that I’ve had to give of myself to my kids, to my wife, to my students, and to my clients, and on all of the struggles to pay bills and keep things in my life organized and taken care of.
At those times, I often wish I was a fish in a well-cared for aquarium.
The link I posted shows dwarf angels may have life expectancies in the wild as little as 1 year. I've certainly beat that in my tanks. What the average wild life expectancy across the board is and what the average captive life expectancy across the board is no one knows yet. So you're free to believe what you want with out worrying about proof contradicting you. As far as extrapolating from the records kept by zoos roughly 80% of the mammals kept live longer in captivity than in the wild and the research so far indicates we should expect the same with our fish.
Sorry to hear your tanks aren't educational. For myself, seeing the awe in the face of a person who had never been to an aquarium, zoo or the coast, the first time they saw a live starfish in one of my tanks or the fascination when I point out a pair of skunk cleaners and explain they're monogamous hermaphrodites are just two of a multitude and have certainly been rewarding and educational experineces.
More links for those interested:
Most mammals have a greater life expectancy in zoos, study finds
Life in the wild harbors the risk of predation, food shortages, harsh climates, and intense competition. Zoo animals, by contrast, are protected from these dangers. Researchers were part of an international team that studied over 50 mammalian species to determine whether the animals live longer...
www.sciencedaily.com
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...es-with-Special-Reference-to-the-Gobiidae.pdf (Includes an example of a pair living 5X longer than the maximum wild life expectancy)
Longevity of the Anemonefish Amphiprion clarkii at Miyake-Jima, Japan with Notes on Four Other Species on JSTOR
Jack T. Moyer, Longevity of the Anemonefish Amphiprion clarkii at Miyake-Jima, Japan with Notes on Four Other Species, Copeia, Vol. 1986, No. 1 (Feb. 10, 1986), pp. 135-139
www.jstor.org
Oof, I missed the ‘not educational’ bit. I wish I’d gone into marine biology so for me my tank is heavily on the educational side when it comes to inhabitants — I’m particularly interested in behavior. Then there’s the stuff we have to learn to maintain it, like water chemistry and biological filtration. And in this thread alone we’ve covered science and philosophy thanks to one Q posed by the OP.The link I posted shows dwarf angels may have life expectancies in the wild as little as 1 year. I've certainly beat that in my tanks. What the average wild life expectancy across the board is and what the average captive life expectancy across the board is no one knows yet. So you're free to believe what you want with out worrying about proof contradicting you. As far as extrapolating from the records kept by zoos roughly 80% of the mammals kept live longer in captivity than in the wild and the research so far indicates we should expect the same with our fish.
Sorry to hear your tanks aren't educational. For myself, seeing the awe in the face of a person who had never been to an aquarium, zoo or the coast, the first time they saw a live starfish in one of my tanks or the fascination when I point out a pair of skunk cleaners and explain they're monogamous hermaphrodites are just two of a multitude and have certainly been rewarding and educational experineces.
More links for those interested:
Most mammals have a greater life expectancy in zoos, study finds
Life in the wild harbors the risk of predation, food shortages, harsh climates, and intense competition. Zoo animals, by contrast, are protected from these dangers. Researchers were part of an international team that studied over 50 mammalian species to determine whether the animals live longer...www.sciencedaily.com
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...es-with-Special-Reference-to-the-Gobiidae.pdf (Includes an example of a pair living 5X longer than the maximum wild life expectancy)
Longevity of the Anemonefish Amphiprion clarkii at Miyake-Jima, Japan with Notes on Four Other Species on JSTOR
Jack T. Moyer, Longevity of the Anemonefish Amphiprion clarkii at Miyake-Jima, Japan with Notes on Four Other Species, Copeia, Vol. 1986, No. 1 (Feb. 10, 1986), pp. 135-139
I'm pretty sure this captive raised clownfish pair aren't happy but I'm pretty sure it's not because of they're stuck in a 220 gallon tank.
attiland
2500 Club Member
Have you read the requirements to class a chicken free range? You would be surprised. I have a funny comparison with the cows tooI understand your point but that's quite the comparison with the extreme chicken cage example, so yes continue the comparison with "free range" chickens
EDIT:
I do think "not knowing" comes into play. You may know and experience a greater happiness than my version of happiness, based off your individual life experiences differing from mine. But that does not change my individual standard for happiness based of my individual experience.
You are right we don’t really know. Last night I have asked them but the remanded quiet so I have just carried ou with the water testing.
Zoos are educational home aquarium is fun. Unless you have stream of people learning beside your tank I wouldn’t say your tank classed as educational. Not because you and your family don’t learn from simply having it and looking after it but because it doesn’t reach outside of your doorstep.The link I posted shows dwarf angels may have life expectancies in the wild as little as 1 year. I've certainly beat that in my tanks. What the average wild life expectancy across the board is and what the average captive life expectancy across the board is no one knows yet. So you're free to believe what you want with out worrying about proof contradicting you. As far as extrapolating from the records kept by zoos roughly 80% of the mammals kept live longer in captivity than in the wild and the research so far indicates we should expect the same with our fish.
Sorry to hear your tanks aren't educational. For myself, seeing the awe in the face of a person who had never been to an aquarium, zoo or the coast, the first time they saw a live starfish in one of my tanks or the fascination when I point out a pair of skunk cleaners and explain they're monogamous hermaphrodites are just two of a multitude and have certainly been rewarding and educational experineces.
More links for those interested:
Most mammals have a greater life expectancy in zoos, study finds
Life in the wild harbors the risk of predation, food shortages, harsh climates, and intense competition. Zoo animals, by contrast, are protected from these dangers. Researchers were part of an international team that studied over 50 mammalian species to determine whether the animals live longer...www.sciencedaily.com
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...es-with-Special-Reference-to-the-Gobiidae.pdf (Includes an example of a pair living 5X longer than the maximum wild life expectancy)
Longevity of the Anemonefish Amphiprion clarkii at Miyake-Jima, Japan with Notes on Four Other Species on JSTOR
Jack T. Moyer, Longevity of the Anemonefish Amphiprion clarkii at Miyake-Jima, Japan with Notes on Four Other Species, Copeia, Vol. 1986, No. 1 (Feb. 10, 1986), pp. 135-139
as per life expectancy what zoos and expected aquarists achieve in terms of life span of the animals they care for is a drop in the ocean. The average is way lower than in the wild. Well done you are experienced and you had a fish or more lived longer than it would in the wild. You are the one pulling up the statistics.
Don’t forget when you bought that fish there was a 100 other in that batch died on the way to a home aquarium.
Is homeschooling education, or is it not education because it didn’t happen with the public outside the home?Have you read the requirements to class a chicken free range? You would be surprised. I have a funny comparison with the cows too
You are right we don’t really know. Last night I have asked them but the remanded quiet so I have just carried ou with the water testing.
Zoos are educational home aquarium is fun. Unless you have stream of people learning beside your tank I wouldn’t say your tank classed as educational. Not because you and your family don’t learn from simply having it and looking after it but because it doesn’t reach outside of your doorstep.
as per life expectancy what zoos and expected aquarists achieve in terms of life span of the animals they care for is a drop in the ocean. The average is way lower than in the wild. Well done you are experienced and you had a fish or more lived longer than it would in the wild. You are the one pulling up the statistics.
Don’t forget when you bought that fish there was a 100 other in that batch died on the way to a home aquarium.
attiland
2500 Club Member
You are missing the my point. Home schooling is educational of course but you are not keeping a reef for home schooling are you? I am not and while my 5 years old can tell the name of most of the corals and fish in there I don’t see it more educational than having a hamster. You can guess my preference
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