Your tank is too new for _______ organism. Why?

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Randy Holmes-Farley

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I feel so strange lately. Maybe it’s something I’m drinking/eating. I see ChatGPT everywhere….like it’s chasing me, it’s hiding behind the bushes, sometimes I feel like I hear it talking to me in my sleep. Maybe I should see someone about this.

Saw an article about a woman in love with Chat gpt lol
 

A_Blind_Reefer

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Saw an article about a woman in love with Chat gpt lol
Sadly, this is sounding like it is becoming “normal” behavior. I listened to a podcast about the ai relationship partners shown at CES in Vegas last week… Well, that and the robot “therapy” dogs for people with issues like ptsd. Umm, yeah…that robot dog and relationship partner creep me out and give me ptsd! Ha

Edit. Plus side though, no one yells at you for leaving the seat up and no poop to scoop in the yard!
 

Cichlid Dad

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Breakfast Club Nerd GIF

You mean my girlfriend on the computer ain't real?!!?!!?
 

TangerineSpeedo

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I was going to point out that quite a few folks set up free standing frag tanks and use them quite rapidly
My frag tank I set up, No uglies. Nothing. I may have had something pop up for a few days but then it would be going once I adjusted for the cause.
 

TangerineSpeedo

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So I think it is really about experience. the ability to assess the needs of the environment you created and making adjustments for that. That is all good on paper... Even I as amazing as I am, :cool: still have hiccups, little things here or there. Things I can do better or be better about. Sometimes I know the answer, but am just too lazy to do something right away. But to the question, 99% experience and knowledge the rest is stuff you just can't control.
 

Luminous74

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I feel so strange lately. Maybe it’s something I’m drinking/eating. I see ChatGPT everywhere….like it’s chasing me, it’s hiding behind the bushes, sometimes I feel like I hear it talking to me in my sleep. Maybe I should see someone about this.
Yes, I see GPT everywhere too, and I love it. It is friendly, kind, and so helpful when it comes to helping me translate thoughts and texts into English, since my English is really terrible.

Still, I secretly wonder when it will transform into a Terminator. So: Pssssst... I don’t believe everything it says. But oh well, I don’t believe anyone when they say everything either.
 

taricha

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A chemical changing effect? (what chemicals?)

Let me make a contrarian case for a way that water chemistry may be an important thing that stabilizes over time. (the case for bacteria/benthic succession can also be made as well)

This is something that I've been thinking about in my messing around with trace elements since results on the ICP's weren't what I wasn't expecting. I have been doing a bunch of different stuff to my system in phases 6 weeks at a time, and looking at ICP-OES+ICP-MS results between each phase. I expected to see lots of differences between doing essentially no water changes ~1-2% week vs lots 15% per week. I expected to see changes switching from feeding boring flake+pellet+mysis vs replacing 25% of the food input with macroalgae and phytoplankton.
What I saw in my (over 10yr old) system is that essentially none of these things moved the water chemistry much at all. Trace elements have sat at nearly the same detectable levels and barely budged up or down through these intended system changes. Nearly 40 detectable elements that are barely moving at all (link to the sort of data I'm referencing) with the hobbyist trying to introduce significant changes to the system.

So perhaps there is a picture of minor and trace elements in a mature system where there is a multi-branch equilibrium between concentrations in the water, some precipitated with inorganics, some bound to organics on surfaces, some bound to dissolved organics, some taken up by organisms. And over time all these different sinks for low concentration elements get well established so that if the concentration in the water gets externally pushed up or down by inputs or removals, then the equilibrium between these different element sinks works to level the water concentration. More inputs - more rapid movement into the sinks, smaller inputs, some of the sinks such as precipitates, natural chelating dissolved organics and dead organisms all become sources - releasing some back into the water. Maybe old systems are sort of a "Steady Chem 2025" on their own? :p

I'll give 3 specific element examples since most of what's written above is vague handwaving.
Silicon: In my system years ago it was very depleted, I dosed and dosed lots for months and watched my system guzzle it down. Now - it sits around 0.5ppm silicate without me doing anything, and I haven't dosed it in months. I see sponges and flushes of diatoms come and go. But the concentration stays steady. The uptakes and dissolutions back into the water seem to have balanced. (confirmed no notable inputs through water changes).

Phosphate works similarly in many systems. People who find it zero'd have to dose surprising large amounts for a long time, and then - they don't anymore. The system will often just hold a steady level once enough inputs have been added (mine does).

Iodine is another element where when people start dosing the demand is enormous, but the demand drops over time after more and more inputs. Uptake slows, and maybe some of the sinks once built up, become sources here too. (I've measured Iodine release into the tank water from dead gorgonian tissue before.)

Maybe many other minor & traces work like these more easily measured ones. Fairly easy to argue that Copper and Iron for instance have many of the sinks I mentioned: precipitates, bound to organics on surfaces chelated with dissolved organics in water, in addition to uptake by organisms.

Without these sinks being well established, we should expect new systems to be much swingier with respect to many of these things. Once firmly established, water concentrations seem quite hard to move for lots of elements.
 

Garf

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From a couple of experiences I've had, using 10% aged water from a running tank, bypassses the new tank syndrome. I am very wary of these cycling additives for dry rock start ups. Is it not feasible these additives hinder the maturation process?
 

TangerineSpeedo

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Let me make a contrarian case for a way that water chemistry may be an important thing that stabilizes over time. (the case for bacteria/benthic succession can also be made as well)

This is something that I've been thinking about in my messing around with trace elements since results on the ICP's weren't what I wasn't expecting. I have been doing a bunch of different stuff to my system in phases 6 weeks at a time, and looking at ICP-OES+ICP-MS results between each phase. I expected to see lots of differences between doing essentially no water changes ~1-2% week vs lots 15% per week. I expected to see changes switching from feeding boring flake+pellet+mysis vs replacing 25% of the food input with macroalgae and phytoplankton.
What I saw in my (over 10yr old) system is that essentially none of these things moved the water chemistry much at all. Trace elements have sat at nearly the same detectable levels and barely budged up or down through these intended system changes. Nearly 40 detectable elements that are barely moving at all (link to the sort of data I'm referencing) with the hobbyist trying to introduce significant changes to the system.

So perhaps there is a picture of minor and trace elements in a mature system where there is a multi-branch equilibrium between concentrations in the water, some precipitated with inorganics, some bound to organics on surfaces, some bound to dissolved organics, some taken up by organisms. And over time all these different sinks for low concentration elements get well established so that if the concentration in the water gets externally pushed up or down by inputs or removals, then the equilibrium between these different element sinks works to level the water concentration. More inputs - more rapid movement into the sinks, smaller inputs, some of the sinks such as precipitates, natural chelating dissolved organics and dead organisms all become sources - releasing some back into the water. Maybe old systems are sort of a "Steady Chem 2025" on their own? :p

I'll give 3 specific element examples since most of what's written above is vague handwaving.
Silicon: In my system years ago it was very depleted, I dosed and dosed lots for months and watched my system guzzle it down. Now - it sits around 0.5ppm silicate without me doing anything, and I haven't dosed it in months. I see sponges and flushes of diatoms come and go. But the concentration stays steady. The uptakes and dissolutions back into the water seem to have balanced. (confirmed no notable inputs through water changes).

Phosphate works similarly in many systems. People who find it zero'd have to dose surprising large amounts for a long time, and then - they don't anymore. The system will often just hold a steady level once enough inputs have been added (mine does).

Iodine is another element where when people start dosing the demand is enormous, but the demand drops over time after more and more inputs. Uptake slows, and maybe some of the sinks once built up, become sources here too. (I've measured Iodine release into the tank water from dead gorgonian tissue before.)

Maybe many other minor & traces work like these more easily measured ones. Fairly easy to argue that Copper and Iron for instance have many of the sinks I mentioned: precipitates, bound to organics on surfaces chelated with dissolved organics in water, in addition to uptake by organisms.

Without these sinks being well established, we should expect new systems to be much swingier with respect to many of these things. Once firmly established, water concentrations seem quite hard to move for lots of elements.
Vaguely hand waving back at you!
You are reaffirming my point of experience and knowledge is 99% of it. When to do and what to do at any given time.
I am not good at chemistry/math (ever since @Randy Holmes-Farley hit me in the head with a piece of Pukani rock in HS... JK I think he skipped some of HS) I am good with concepts and spatial relationships and 3D imaging in my mind. I got an "A" in chemistry lab in Undergrad and probably an "D" in lecture. which is why I am not a marine biologists right now. But that did not stop a friend of a friend to steal my practical research on Ammonia binders and using it in his thesis paper and not co-authoring me on it... Oh I digress...
 

ChrisfromBrick

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acropora- my tank is 9 months and though it is stabiliIng, there are still swings at times. I also won’t put acro in a tank that doesn’t give me more than 250 par in top 1/3.

Strongly considering going all t5 for my next tank. No sticks will have sections that are bare because LED’s are subpar
 

Gregg @ ADP

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I was part of a group that did a 3000g reef tank many years ago. Without going into detail, the client wanted it fully stocked with coral and fish the first month it was set up.

When I say coral, I’m not saying Kenya trees and GSPs. He went out with collectors in Fiji and hand picked about 500 coral, mostly acros…most pretty big. Several hundred fish were also added at that time. Everything went into the tank about 3 weeks after the water went in.

The expectation was that we would lose at least 50% of the coral, but ended up only losing about 5-7% of it. This was back in the Fiji live rock days, and if memory serves me, there was something like 4000lbs of Fiji rock used.
 

bubbgee

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acropora- my tank is 9 months and though it is stabiliIng, there are still swings at times. I also won’t put acro in a tank that doesn’t give me more than 250 par in top 1/3.

Strongly considering going all t5 for my next tank. No sticks will have sections that are bare because LED’s are subpar
I ended up supplementing with T5 for my setup. Loving it so far. Seeing growth and encrusting that I thought would never happen in my tank finally.
 

ChrisfromBrick

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I ended up supplementing with T5 for my setup. Loving it so far. Seeing growth and encrusting that I thought would never happen in my tank finally.
I figure just go plug and play with an ati sunpower and know my Par will be well above average. Honestly i’m not terribly impressed with Led lighting, especially keasil, other than the shimmer which i really don’t care about anymore.
 

lbacha

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I don’t think age of the tank has a direct correlation to success in keeping coral. Can it help sure does it always help not at all or every hobbiest that has an older tank would be able to keep any coral.

Stability is what equates to success growing most corals (some are just a pita no matter what lol). If you can set up a tank and stabilize it quickly you will have success growing coral quickly. This “stability that is” is much easier to say than do in practice and takes experience and understanding each tank as they all have different nuances.

I have been reefing for 30+ years and have made many mistakes along the way. Most of my tanks I waited to add coral as I learned how to stabilize the tank. Even after I thought I had them figured out I still made mistakes that impacted stability (swings in alk, nutrients, salinity, etc).

My newest 300g tank (started with 200 pounds of dry Marco rock and some rock from other systems to seed it) I decided to try adding corals right away as I had an overflowing frag system. The results have been spectacular. I started adding Zoas, lps and montiporas in the first month it was set up and they have all grown like crazy (I had coralline after 3-4 weeks and have been maintaining all/cal/mag since week 2. 6 weeks in I started to add acropora and now in month three they are all encrusting the rock and I’m hoping to see them start branching soon. I have tested nutrients and key parameters daily and adjusted as needed the Algae scrubber, skimmer, kalk dosing and how I fed the tank. I started ICP tests after 2 months and have been dosing trace elements for over a month now. I have seen great coral success with no aging but as you can see there has been a lot of work to get here. Check out my build thread for the details as this has been my dream tank and I spared no expenses. I initially planned to let it age as long as it needed since I did decide to use so much dry rock and that can be a bit tricky. I did go with sand on this tank, the rock and media from 3 other established systems (a few pounds from each) and I did buy 10 pounds of premium Australian live rock. All of this allowed me to power through and quickly establish the dry rock.

In synopsis of this long post, if you know what you are doing or in some cases get lucky you can speed the process up. If you are new or don’t have the time to test and tweak a new system then take your time and age the tank until you are comfortable with the nuances of keeping it stable.

Len
 

KrisReef

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Without these sinks being well established, we should expect new systems to be much swingier with respect to many of these things. Once firmly established, water concentrations seem quite hard to move for lots of elements.
I think you’re onto something here with the concept of nutrient/ element sinks in established systems.

I have heard that people in old folks homes tend to loose living in their twilight years, and that they are also called swingers, which is close to Swingier, as you mentioned.

I’m not their yet but I will report back if I find out anything else.

Excited Aww GIF by TikTok
 

tripdad

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Here's what I " know" after being in the hobby since 1983. 1) Most rules are really just opinion. 2) The more I know the less I know. 3) The easiest path to success in this hobby is fresh( less than 24 hrs from ocean to tank) live rock, a good skimmer and good lights. I've tried just about every method and with this recipe I can put corals in right away, including acros, and fish by day 5. My guess is it is all about " Biome" whatever that is defined as. In other words if there is enough " good" stuff to balance out the " bad" stuff, enough buffering capacity in rocks and/or sand and enough knowledge/ experience in the reefer to respond when needed. Not overreact and do 9 things trying to fix 1 thing that may not need fixing in the first place. Only " Rule" that I believe in is slow down and think it thru before doing anything. Ok, enough rambling from an old man, lol.
 

bakbay

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I’m stumped so definitely following. My 4mos old tank cannot grow SPS — I can grow hammers, torches, other easy corals but no SPS. I’ve used 50% established rocks and half dry rocks. The basic parameters look normal and stable but it’s clear that something is missing. I used to think that once parameters are stable and coralline algae growth as an indicator, SPS should grow. Well, nope — not yet. Guess I’ll wait until a year mark but I’m at a loss on what’s missing.
 

90addict

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I'm less than 5 months into the hobby. Started with tap water lol. However, I did also start the tank with 40lbs of very mature live rock. In a months time, I added fish, bta and zoas. A month or two after that, LPS. Now I also have my first SPS. In my opinion, time doesn't matter. It's all about the live rock and beneficial bacteria. Also, not overreacting when encountering an issue. "Easy does it"
 

bubbgee

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I’m stumped so definitely following. My 4mos old tank cannot grow SPS — I can grow hammers, torches, other easy corals but no SPS. I’ve used 50% established rocks and half dry rocks. The basic parameters look normal and stable but it’s clear that something is missing. I used to think that once parameters are stable and coralline algae growth as an indicator, SPS should grow. Well, nope — not yet. Guess I’ll wait until a year mark but I’m at a loss on what’s missing.

I had the same issue until I added a Trident to monitor my alk, cal and mag. Made sure my pH is above the minimum and I have been able to successfully keep most sps frags alive at this point.

Also important is to buy sps that are aquacultured vs maricultured. My maricultured rate of success is 2 out of 5 frags I get from chop houses and auctions.
 

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I do agree with the above in respect to competition and barren surfaces. Every 6 months or so i dose a heavy round of interceptor, which I think disrupts that competition balance and the next couple weeks there is nutrient fluctuations as well random algae that are never present besides that time period. Obviously things right themselves, the algae goes away, and whatever life I killed off repopulates to regain that balance.
I was scrolling through this chat and stumbled upon your message. I dosed interceptor roughly 6 weeks ago. Multiple water changes, added carbon, cleaning out my HOB filter, but my hermits all seem affected. I have a few that crawl around the tank. I have a few that have been in the same spot, yet alive on the sand bed. I seem to be the only person that dosed interceptor, that has had this issue... Do you have any idea what else I could do? Or what I'm doing wrong? Tank is only 36 gallons.
 

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