Zoanthus sp. vs Palythoa sp. why so much confusion?

[C. Eymann]

Zoanthus sp vs Palythoa sp

Why is there so much confusion and wrong identity in the trade?
Soo many zoas like utter chaos, frozen apples, pandoras, bloodsuckers, nirvanas, people eaters etc etc are all incorrectly called "palys" by many hobbyists and even vendors.

where as the only colorful real Palythoas in the hobby are purple deaths, captain jerks, nuclear greens, giant cinnamons etc etc.

"who cares?" - sure, I get that, but I have seen people refuse zoanthus sp. like utter chaos and people eaters because they thought they were palythoa.

Most commonly its Z. gigantus, kurisho, vietmanemisis or pulchellus that get called "palys"



Question of discussion is, will it ever change?





Zoanthus sp.

REAL Palythoa sp.

 

[Reefing_addiction]

Is there a way by just looking at them to tell? Is one bigger than the other? Is there skirt different? I’m really not interested in names I go for colors!

 

[Oscar47f]

So the “real palythoa” you’re referring to are also referred as protopalythoa... where as there are palythoa and then zoanthids... problem being vendors aren’t concerned with properly identifying because they’re not into coral taxonomy... im no expert but because of the wide range of different color strains and morphs the general rule is zoanthids are smaller, palythoa are bigger and protopalythoa are large with short tentacles... but there are true zoanthids that can get bigger and vice versa.. it would be super cool if things could be identified better for care purposes IMO

 

[C. Eymann]

So the “real palythoa” you’re referring to are also referred as protopalythoa... where as there are palythoa and then zoanthids... problem being vendors aren’t concerned with properly identifying because they’re not into coral taxonomy... im no expert but because of the wide range of different color strains and morphs the general rule is zoanthids are smaller, palythoa are bigger and protopalythoa are large with short tentacles... but there are true zoanthids that can get bigger and vice versa.. it would be super cool if things could be identified better for care purposes IMO

Im a stickhead and admit zoanthids aren't my forte.
but to my knowledge protopalythoa and palythoa became synonymous with eachother taxonomy wise, like how acropora formosa and acropora muricata are now synonymous. -same species/genus
Palythoa mutuki, used to be called protopalythoa but is now called Palythoa mutuki


Smaller vs bigger isn't a reliable differentiator.
Palythoa have finer tapering tentacles and differentiate striations on the oral disc.
While I have read sediment deposits in the stolon mat are a key identification feature, I have also read that is not always the case.

 

[Oscar47f]

Im a stickhead and admit zoanthids aren't my forte.
but to my knowledge protopalythoa and palythoa became synonymous with eachother taxonomy wise, like how acropora formosa and acropora muricata are now synonymous. -same species/genus
Palythoa mutuki, used to be called protopalythoa but is now called Palythoa mutuki


Smaller vs bigger isn't a reliable differentiator.
Palythoa have finer tapering tentacles and differentiate striations on the oral disc.
While I have read sediment deposits in the stolon mat are a key identification feature, I have also read that is not always the case.

Lol There’s a lot to learn... I was reading an excerpt by James Reimer that says so far because of DNA testing there are fewer than 10 actual different species of zoanthids (so far) he describes the species very well but I feel like the average person would not be able to identify them based on physical appearances alone as it did take DNA tests to confirm there are fewer than we previously thought.... some palythoa incorporate sand into their structure like you mentioned but it’s not always definite like you stated... look him up and give him a read it’s interesting...

As far as hobby trade names many big retailers can’t get names correct I don’t expect them to get taxonomy correct... however as a hobbyist knowing the species you have and where it’s found could definitely help when finding a place to care for it...

 

[zoaprince]

what are your sources? I don't like misinformation being spread around.

 

[Steven Garland]

I just call them all Zoa's lol people can get upset all they want.

 

[C. Eymann]

what are your sources? I don't like misinformation being spread around.

This article provides some good insight into two species of Zoanthus that are most commonly "incorrectly" called "palys" in the hobby

(PDF) Morphological and Molecular Revision of Zoanthus (Anthozoa: Hexacorallia) from Southwestern Japan, with Descriptions of Two New Species

PDF | No clear method of identifying species in the zoanthid genus Zoanthus has been established, due in part to the morphological plasticity of this... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Several write ups have also been done by Joe Rowlett on the subject of Zoanthus sp. and Palythoa sp. identification.
In which he addresses the rampant misidentification caused by the comic book names in the trade and vendors tagging "paly" on to their designer names.

Identify This: Zoanthids

By Drew Wham Whether it’s the scientific name or the variety name of a particular coral, reef aquarists want to be able to identify what they have in their

reefs.com

He also touches up on this in his on his article that covers the lack of palytoxins found in Zoanthus sp. dispelling the proposition that all palys and zoas contain palytoxin.

The Dangers (and Myths) of Zoa Toxicity – Part 1

The oceans are full of creatures capable of killing us; one of the more surprising marine menaces is a group of popular aquarium corals known variably as “but

reefs.com

 

[C. Eymann]

I just call them all Zoa's lol people can get upset all they want.

Technically you are not wrong, both zoanthus and palythoa are in the order Zoantharia.


I just think its unfortunate us hobbyists have allowed the term "paly" being thrown around so loosely and incorrectly.

Again, "who cares?"

Well, I have seen people literally avoid anything that has "paly" at the end of it because of potential palytoxin implications (that are blown way out of proportion- but I digress) thats unfortunate because they are beautiful, hardy pieces and 90% of the time its not a real Palythoa anyways!

The only real Palythoas in the hobby that I would actually call attractive would be - purple deaths, captain jerks/America, cinnamons and nuclear greens.

 

[Steven Garland]

There is a stigma that is associated with the z's and p's. Which is pathetic and misinformed,but that is the hobbies fault.

One thing that really just irritates me,is the lack of gumption to actually research something (not directed towards you).

 

[C. Eymann]

There is a stigma that is associated with the z's and p's. Which is pathetic and misinformed,but that is the hobbies fault.

One thing that really just irritates me,is the lack of gumption to actually research something (not directed towards you).

I think vendors take some blame as well,
I did post this topic on a FB group and someone was 100% convinced that his ASD leprechauns were palys, because X vendor lists them as such (there are also vendors who list them correctly as zoas).

Look all around, sooooo many vendors are guilty of listing zoas incorrectly as palys!
I think many hobbyists see this and assume that because "X" vendor sells them as "bubblegum unicorn fart palys" then they must be real Palythoa sp.


Its something that really needs to end, because like I mentioned its unfortunate that many avoid these very attractive, easy to keep corals because they assume they pose a potential hazard and dont want anything to do with them

In my opinion, that is doing the hobby itself a disservice.

I have had a few tell me - " good luck changing anything about it, people will keep calling these imposters palys as its been that way for x amount of years and nothing is going to change"

Misinformation is never a good thing, especially when its widespread and wholly accepted.

 

[ScottR]

Many vendors are just hobbyists... at best. Some are selling right out of their basement. So I wouldn’t think that just because they sell something, they get the names correct. When you order directly from a farm, you have the benefit of receiving the correct names on the packing list.

But when things get fragged, traded and handed down, the names get lost in the mix. As for zoas and palys, I’ve always thought that the skirts are a giveaway. Palys have different skirts than zoas. The mislabeling used to bother me but I’m over it. But why is a ball anemone called an anemone when it’s not even an anemone?

 

[Opus]

Many vendors are just hobbyists... at best. Some are selling right out of their basement. So I wouldn’t think that just because they sell something, they get the names correct. When you order directly from a farm, you have the benefit of receiving the correct names on the packing list.

But when things get fragged, traded and handed down, the names get lost in the mix. As for zoas and palys, I’ve always thought that the skirts are a giveaway. Palys have different skirts than zoas. The mislabeling used to bother me but I’m over it. But why is a ball anemone called an anemone when it’s not even an anemone?

While that is true, you get that on the packing list, that doesn't mean that is what you will get shipped to you. May be more of an issue with some fish than coral. I know my lfs was always griping that he would order certain blennies or wrasses and what was on the packing list and what was actually shipped would be totally different.

In my hobbyist world I'm going to say it is what you didn't want to be said. I don't care. I don't believe the majority of hobbyist care. As another poster said, at the end of the day, I just refer to all of them as zoas.

 

[ScottR]

While that is true, you get that on the packing list, that doesn't mean that is what you will get shipped to you. May be more of an issue with some fish than coral. I know my lfs was always griping that he would order certain blennies or wrasses and what was on the packing list and what was actually shipped would be totally different.

In my hobbyist world I'm going to say it is what you didn't want to be said. I don't care. I don't believe the majority of hobbyist care. As another poster said, at the end of the day, I just refer to all of them as zoas.

It really depends on the farm you’re getting from. Some farms are just vicious. You order 50 hammers and they send all goniopora. But the packing list from what I remember, does state goniopora based on CITES. One problem too, everything is on the packing list but not single listed on each coral, fish or invert when you open it. So if you don’t know the difference between a stylo and pocillopora, I could see someone selling wrong.

 

[C. Eymann]

In my hobbyist world I'm going to say it is what you didn't want to be said. I don't care. I don't believe the majority of hobbyist care. As another poster said, at the end of the day, I just refer to all of them as zoas.

Hmm, its weird, its certainly not that way with goniopora vs alevopora, frogspawns vs hammers, xenia vs cespitularia etc etc. With those, people do seem to care and sort it out/correct when they are confused with eachother.

However, with palythoa vs zoanthus sp. nobody seems to care?
Why is that? especially when one could contain a particular dangerous toxin and studies done so far reveal the other is devoid of this potentially dangerous substance?


Strange indeed!

 

[terraincognita]

So the “real palythoa” you’re referring to are also referred as protopalythoa... where as there are palythoa and then zoanthids... problem being vendors aren’t concerned with properly identifying because they’re not into coral taxonomy... im no expert but because of the wide range of different color strains and morphs the general rule is zoanthids are smaller, palythoa are bigger and protopalythoa are large with short tentacles... but there are true zoanthids that can get bigger and vice versa.. it would be super cool if things could be identified better for care purposes IMO

is there really a difference in care/feeding/lighting between Palys and Zoas though? I think why they’ve been so misnomered. If one was harder or required any different conditions I think the name differentiation would stick.

 

[C. Eymann]

is there really a difference in care/feeding/lighting between Palys and Zoas though? I think why they’ve been so misnomered. If one was harder or required any different conditions I think the name differentiation would stick.

Well, husbandry is the same, however one is potentially medically significant whereas the other is not.

 

[Opus]

Hmm, its weird, its certainly not that way with goniopora vs alevopora, frogspawns vs hammers, xenia vs cespitularia etc etc. With those, people do seem to care and sort it out/correct when they are confused with eachother.

However, with palythoa vs zoanthus sp. nobody seems to care?
Why is that? especially when one could contain a particular dangerous toxin and studies done so far reveal the other is devoid of this potentially dangerous substance?


Strange indeed!

It could all go back to the early days. I've been doing this since the late 80's. Back then it was always zoas or palys used generically. But you always saw a distinction between all the other corals like the ones you have listed above. I don't know why. Maybe it was a $$$ issue. Back then you could get different amounts for a frogspawn vs a hammer but a zoa or a paly was all priced the same. Just like leathers. It took a long time for them to be separated out. I used to see "finger leather" all the time but you would have several different ones to choose from. They might be a nepthea, sinularia or a capnella. It wasn't until the green nepthea hit the market that you started seeing them separated out because they could charge different amounts.

 

[zoaprince]

Many vendors are just hobbyists... at best. Some are selling right out of their basement. So I wouldn’t think that just because they sell something, they get the names correct.

I definitely agree that most of this confusion is because Vendors are hobbyists like us, and not biologists. I certainly don't see Venders hiring or contracting a biologist to identify their "new" corals so we'll be seeing misidentification possibly forever.

On top of this, unless articles directly reference biologists' research I don't find them credible, while some other people might. It's not hard to find contradictory information on how to identify a zoa vs a paly written by random hobbyists.

 

[ScottR]

I definitely agree that most of this confusion is because Vendors are hobbyists like us, and not biologists. I certainly don't see Venders hiring or contracting a biologist to identify their "new" corals so we'll be seeing misidentification possibly forever.

On top of this, unless articles directly reference biologists' research I don't find them credible, while some other people might. It's not hard to find contradictory information on how to identify a zoa vs a paly written by random hobbyists.

I agree with you. But the OP is great at coral taxonomy. Especially SPS. Right down to the species. So I give him full credit for that.