Need an opinion

[rach0608]

So I used to never quarantine fish. When I had my 100 gallon I got tired of ich showing up, going away, showing up, going away and so on. So I finally decided to take out all the rocks, catch all my fish, split them half in the 55 I had set up at the time and the other few in a 37 gallon quarantine. Lost a few fish due to ammonia because I didn't have the 37 set up long enough before putting the fish in there. Lost all three of my cardinals which only left my two clowns in there. Got a scopas tang once I got the tank to normal because I wanted to try the copper treatment on another fish besides just clowns. Left my 100 gallon empty for 12 weeks. Finally got my first surviving fish and the scopas back into that tank then treated the sailfin, kole tang, and arch eye hawkfish. Took almost three months to get rid of the ich from my sailfin tank. By the time they were better I got my 150. So I moved everything to that tank that day. Hadn't see any ich since then. Quarantined all new fish for at least a month. Well we got a new fish store which is where I got my hippo tang. They quarantine all their fish and treat with copper before selling them. I saw their quarantine tanks. I bought the hippo and went ahead and put it in my qt for a week but didn't treat for anything. I figured he was good to go since they quarantine. Well low and behold a week after putting him in my 150 he's got ich. Had several spots the other day. Now just a few. No other fish has it. My question is what would you guys do? Tear it all down again and treat all the fish again and leave the tank empty for 12 weeks again? I plan on getting a 240 gallon sometime within the year. Should I do this knowing I'm just going to move everyone around again when I get that? Or just wait until I get the 240 before treating anything? I've had half my fish for over a year. And the others almost a year or at least half a year not including the hippo tang. Do you think everyone will be ok through it as long as I don't get more fish? Any advice appreciated thanks

 

[KoleTang]

Copper is only effective on the parasite during a certain stage of its life cycle. Most likely the LFS is not treating the fish long enough and that's is how it got past them. The full life cycle usually take around a month, so I QT for 6 weeks to be safe.

If you're definitely setting up a new tank, now may be a good time to put them through treatment.

The trick to QT is using a seeded sponge from the display (don't put it back in display after QT) for biological filtration and doing many water changes to keep the ammonia down. Use ammonia alert patch and ammonia neutralizer for emergencies (SeaChem Prime) and test often. Medicine will usually kill the bacteria in the sponge, but it's good for when meds are not present.

BTW, use cupramine instead of copper sulfate.

 

[rach0608]

Well my quarantine tank stays set up now. and yea I should of been smart and went ahead and did my normal month long quarantine with treatment and then a week of observation. And I use cupramine. And prazipro. So you think I should treat them now and then put them back in my 150? I should be getting the tank in maybe half a year. All my money is going towards my trip to coral con in a month right now. Then after that is when ill start saving for a bigger tank and looking for one.

 

[KoleTang]

Well my quarantine tank stays set up now. and yea I should of been smart and went ahead and did my normal month long quarantine with treatment and then a week of observation. And I use cupramine. And prazipro. So you think I should treat them now and then put them back in my 150? I should be getting the tank in maybe half a year. All my money is going towards my trip to coral con in a month right now. Then after that is when ill start saving for a bigger tank and looking for one.

Well it's a given that the tank is now infected. It's hard to say because some cases of ich will just be more of a nuisance popping up every now and then, other times it will be a full outbreak across all of the fish. You're going to have to decide for yourself since you know more about your situation than I do. Personally, I would treat the fish in a separate tank, then remove the medicine and keep them in holding in the QT tank (Making sure they have substantial filtration). As this is happening I would tear down the current tank and take my time upgrading to make sure everything is done right.

Good choices on medicine. Be aware that even though the QT has been running, most meds will kill biological bacteria, which is essentially un-cycling the tank (this is the point where you need water changes to control toxins). After the medicine is removed I add the sponge in to act as the established bacteria.

 

[rach0608]

Ok that makes sense. I guess I I'll just watch them. So far the blue hippo has been in there for two weeks and I still haven't seen any spots on any of my other fish. Just the hippo tang. And everybody even the hippo are still acting like their normal selves pigging out on their food or algae sheets when I put that in there. So I guess I will see what happens and if I have a horrible outbreak I'll go ahead and treat them. If they keep being strong and healthy acting then I'll just wait until I get my bigger tank. I plan on using my regular 37 gallon quarantine tank and I'll set my 55 up as a quarantine. That way I don't have too many in one tank. Then I'll get my bigger tank set up and all my rocks and starfish and everything in there and let it sit for 12 weeks. Then it'll get a good cycle before putting them back anyways and then from then on I'll quarantine every fish for two months. Because I will never do this again. I'm so mad at myself for thinking he was ok just because they Quarantined him for a couple weeks.

 

[saltyhog]

LFS often use copper at subtherapeutic doses that only mask the disease till you get it home in your tank. Most experts I've read lately suggest 4 weeks treatment for copper/cupramine. I hate you're going through this but you've done it once, you can do it again!

 

[rach0608]

So I just found this old thread and guess what I forgot all about the hippo tang ever having ich. I still have the same tank but 2 of my fish did randomly die not too long ago. The kole tang and sailfin tang I had for 5 years. Which I hadn't even seen ich in my tank in so long I forgot the hippo tang ever introduced it back. But maybe they could of had ich that wasn't showing and it eventually killed them. I've added 2 more fish since then that I know I quarantined before putting in there and neither of them show any ich. So I really am finally upgrading to a 300 gallon. Ordered it and waiting for it to be built. So I will definitely be retreating my remaining 4 fish. The same arch eye hawkish I had when I originally posted this almost 3 years ago, the blue hippo, lemon peel angel and a lunar wrasse. Then I will set up the new tank and leave it empty for 12 weeks. That's going to be torture but I will do it. I have 2 quarantine tanks set up and I ordered a few fish from the lfs. A mccoskers flasher wrasse, melanarus wrasse, 3 anthias and a coral beauty angel. I'm wondering if cupramine is ok to treat the wrasses and anthias with? The guy at the store said wrasses and anthias don't do well with copper. I do know I treated the lunar wrasse with cupramine and he's fine but am worried to do it with a sensitive flasher wrasse. I found a couple other things saying you have to do a lower dose of copper but won't that not kill the ich? Or would a lower dose for longer work?

 

[Empress]

TTM would be better for the wrasse and anthias.

 

[rach0608]

I don't really understand TTM and don't really know if I have the means to do that. That's a lot of work that I'm not sure I'm able to do when I work 6 am to 6 pm 5 days a week. Would cupramine kill them? I've been trying to do some research and read one thing where somebody said they've used it up to a level of .3 and they tolerated it just fine. Does the ich die at lower levels of copper though? Does it take longer or does it even work at all

 

[rach0608]

Ok well I've been trying to find as much information as possible. Everything I've gathered is slowly increase copper over the course of 5 to 10 days. Which I usually do it over 5 days anyways so I'lljust increase it to 10 days. And only get up to .3 copper level and do it for 4 weeks and they have tolerated it well and done just fine. So this will be my plan. If anybody else has any experiences please let me know

 

[mcarroll]

Do what you think is right for treatment in your current situation, but...

Fish bounce in and out of ich like that most likely due to stress.

If they go through an ich infection, but are still stressed, they never quite heal and can remain a carrier (and immune) for some time. Up to 6 months from what I've read.
FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot ...

If another stress comes along (or the initial stress isn't removed) then the carrier fish can reinfect the stressed fish. If the whole tank is being stressed, then the whole tank gets it. Maybe even the carrier fish if conditions are badly deteriorated.

Makes sense?

This is an awesome checklist:
Circular 919/FA005: Stress - Its Role in Fish Disease

"When disease outbreaks occur, the underlying cause of mortality should be identified, as well as underlying stress factors that may be compromising the natural survival mechanisms of the fish. Correction of stressors (i.e., poor water quality, excessive crowding, etc.) should precede or accompany disease treatments.

Stress compromises the fish's natural defenses so that it cannot effectively protect itself from invading pathogens. A disease treatment is an artificial way of slowing down the invading pathogen so that the fish has time to defend itself with an immune response. Any stress that adversely affects the ability of the fish to protect itself will result in an ongoing disease problem; as soon as the treatment wears off, the pathogen can build up its numbers and attack again. Rarely would a treatment result in total annihilation of an invading organism. Disease control is dependent upon the ability of the fish to overcome infection, as well as the efficacy of the chemical or antibiotic used."​

It's worth pointing out that many Tangs are not well-suited for typical aquarium conditions and are known as "ich magnets" as a result. They stress.

With some exceptions, they have one of the most reef-tank-incompatible lifestyles of any fish we tend keep.

Consequently they have higher requirements of us as fish-keepers than "normal fish" have. They will do better with more space than normal fish and better diets than normal fish. Of course the usual stressors need to be looked after as well.....bad tankmates, et al.

Focus on feeding (more) live foods and foods high in carotenoids like krill and plankton. Newly hatched brine shrimp (can be semi-automated) or decapsulated eggs, Arctipods, etc....all good sources. Lots of others out there too.

Flake and pellet food can be a good source for carontenoids too, but (if at all possible) dry or freeze-dried foods should not make up the majority of a fish's diet.

 

[rach0608]

So not trying to sound rude at all but I'm really confused as to what you are telling me to do. Are you saying I should not treat anybody and just let them be constant carriers of ich to where they just end up showing signs anytime there is a tiny bit of stress? Also your talking about Tangs and I was asking about treating the wrasse and anthias I am about to get. The original post was about the tang I got 2 or 3 years ago which I thought the store quarantined it enough so I only quarantined it for a week and then it got ich when I put it in the display tank. Which it hasn't shown any ich in a long time. I completely forgot that it had it. But I was planning on retreating my fish when I set up my new tank next week and leave it empty for 12 weeks again

 

[Lionfish Lair]

It's a hard decision to make sometimes. Like you said, do you want to be dealing with it every time stress appears. I maintained it in my 100g and it was fine. I did it to another fish and the last time, he died. I thought he was going to "get over it" like he usually did, but I was wrong. Every time they have a little "outbreak" it does damage to the gills and what not. If I was moving them out of one tank to another, I think I would take the opportunity to treat them.

Now, in stocking my 240g, you'd think I'd treat before putting them in, but I have not. I have the luxury of being able to look at their skin under a microscope, so it affords me better odds of detecting it than relying on eyeballs.

 

[rach0608]

Yea I'm definitely going to be treating before putting them into the new tank. I'm just trying to figure out when I get these anthias and wrasses they will probably end up with ich as well because that's just how these few stores around here are. They all have ich.
Also what about snails, shrimp and corals? I see people saying they dip corals but with what? I don't plan on doing corals for a while but I need information on all of that also. I see people saying they quarantine shrimp and snails for 76 days for ich to just die off? There's so much information and so many different ways of doing things I'm just trying to get help coming up with a solid routine for everything.

 

[Lionfish Lair]

The other stuff needs to be left in a fallow environment, your snails and such....

Let's move you to a section where you'll hit the right people to ask about specific fish protocols.

 

[rach0608]

The other stuff needs to be left in a fallow environment, your snails and such....

Let's move you to a section where you'll hit the right people to ask about specific fish protocols.

Ok thank you. it's hard to figure out exactly where you need to post. How do we move it?

 

[rach0608]

Nevermind i see now it's been moved already

 

[Lionfish Lair]

Nevermind i see now it's been moved already

 

[Humblefish]

LFS often use copper at subtherapeutic doses that only mask the disease till you get it home in your tank. Most experts I've read lately suggest 4 weeks treatment for copper/cupramine. I hate you're going through this but you've done it once, you can do it again!

+1 I recently learned that Seachem is actually advising LFS to maintain a 0.20 mg/L (subtherapeutic) copper level.

This strategy is designed to help LFS keep parasites at bay without exposing fish to a high copper level. However, in actuality it's just kicking the problem down the road to the end user, the hobbyist.

I also want to reiterate NEVER to use an ammonia reducer in the presence of copper.