How to find the source of my phosphates (.34ppm)

[Spendley]

29g Biocube, about 14 months old. (Aquaticlife 115 skimmer that i can't get to work well, chemipure/purigen in middle chamber with cheato)
Livestock: clownfish for about a year, royal gramma 10 months, RBTA 9 months, watchman goby 6 months, and a few peppermint shrimp and assorted corals
Lights: Have Steve's LED - run blues from 10am-11:30pm w/ hour ramp (50%); whites 12-9pm w/ hour ramp (30%)
Water Source: RODI which is currently spitting out about 45 TDS so I think it is time to change filters (got in December) - used PetCo bought 'Sea Water' 3x while I waited to replace RO membrane
Feeding: pellets once, sometimes twice a day - frozen probably 2x a week
Params: Temp - 78.6; Salinity 1.026; ph 8.2+ (API test kit); 400 calcium; 8 dKH; .34 phosphates (hanna); 15 ppm nitrates (usually 10ish); 0 nitrite / ammonia


Okay so a few weeks ago I started seeing little patches of both Green Hair Algea and Cyanobacteria pop up. It has since gotten worse, and in the past days it is now affecting my corals so I am starting to worry. Previously I was getting readings of about .1 ppm phosphates, but in the last week it has risen to .34ppm. I have found three deals snails in the last two days , and my RBTA has moved for the first time since I got him.

Did a 5 gallon water change on Thursday, one again this morning, and am in the process of getting 10 more gallons ready.

Two mistakes have recently been made - put a cube in my turkey baster to thaw it out and fed half of it; then the next day fed the other half without refrigeration. Looking back, I feel like this is really dumb…and have since learned that you should rinse and thaw the food so I imagine letting it sit only made it worse. Also, I took my turkey baster and tried to group up some of the cyano so I could syphon it out…there was a fair amount of detritus that came up, which concerned me. Could this be the cause for the spike in phosphates?

I am going to check the phosphates in my RODI water to make sure that is not a source (going to need to re-order Hanna reagent soon too, shucks). I can cut back on feeding, that is easy. What else should I do? Is it time to get more clean up crew, have only but a fraction of what I once had in terms of hermit crabs, cerith snails, astrea snails, and turbo snails.

Any help and / or tips would be greatly appreciated. This is the first real problem I have encountered and it is unsettling :squigglemouth:

 

[Mike J.]

My first thought would be the pellets. Uneaten pellets will certainly raise your phosphates.

 

[Spendley]

Even if I have used pellets for a long time; never having a problem until now?

 

[pickupman66]

"Water Source: RODI which is currently spitting out about 45 TDS so I think it is time to change filters (got in December) - used PetCo bought 'Sea Water' 3x while I waited to replace RO membrane "


THIS. I do believe is alot of your issue.. if you used this water, you most likey introduced this into your system thru top off and water change. Use your Hanna meter and go run a test on your top of water. that may answer your questions.

I just setup a new tank with rock from my old one. I got new RO/Di filters about 2 months ago. TDS was ZERO. but when I tested, my phosphates were .10. top of water was .14! Pure Ro was zero. problem was in my top off water bin. (55 gallon drum) I opened it up and it smelt fishy. it had some bugs and one of my reef towels in it. YUCK.. so washed it with bleach, air dried it and then put it back in service.

 

[Spendley]

I ran the test on my top off water. It showed .10 ppm phosphates (high but nowhere near the .34 in display tank); but my TDS meter went to '---'….which is strange, if I hold it under my sink I get readings around 400 so could my top off water have lots of bad stuff in it? Probably time to clean the reservoir, thanks for the suggestion!

If I don't have bleach, will a simply rinse do a sufficient job?

 

[Spendley]

Ordered new phosphate reagent, and chemi-pure elite / purigen for my media basket.

Also did a 10 gallon water change.

 

[beaslbob]

The original question or desire is to find the source of your phosphates.

It can be stated with certainty the phosphates come from your bioload.

You are measuring phosphates because the phosphate consumes (algae) are not keeping up.

In order to lower phosphates you need to increase the consumers as your new algae and cyano are now doing.

Add more and increase consumers like algae to starve out the uglies.

my .02

 

[Spendley]

Increase consumers like algae? I have cheato growing in the back chamber. What else should I be adding? Will more snails help consume the phosphates?

 

[Spendley]

Any other tips? My corals are suffering and I'm not sure there is anything here that will quickly solve my problem in time to save them.
1) reduce feeding pellets, switch over to frozen and rinse/thaw before use
2) get new filter for RODI to try and get minimal TDS
3) wash out RO reserviour to make sure that isn't the problem

 

[Preyou]

How often are you feeding? You may be feeding too much or too often.

You stated that you thawed a cube, fed half one day and the other half the next. Being that this is a 29g system with a small filter capacity, I think that you are feeding way too much.

Depending on your fish, you do not necessarily even need to feed daily. While some other fish may demand multiple feedings per day.

 

[moulton712]

I think its a combo problem. Your rodi water and too much food. Also are you washing your mysis first?

I had a problem with my rodi, i changed my filters and most of my phosphates went away. I also added more flow to my frag tank and the bad stuff went away

 

[Spendley]

I am feeding pellets once a day, and frozen probably 2x a week (but I think it is too much frozen at once it seems).

Anything other than patience and better feeding/water to get me out of this mess?

Thanks for feedback everyone

 

[WesF]

All food contains phosphate. Some more than other but if you are not actively removing phosphate it will build up over time regardless of what you feed

 

[fishroomlady]

In addition to what you listed that you are going to do - I have always run a phosphate absorbing media in my tank. I prefer phosguard but you need to make sure to not use too much and to regularly remove - there are articles about phosguard and aluminum to be aware of.

 

[pickupman66]

A lot of good suggestions. Change your rodi. Definitely clean top off bin. Feed less and put something ton consume or absorb phosphates. Your rock also has some locked it it that it may leech for a period ofntime.

 

[Spendley]

I bought phos-zorb, an API product yesterday and put it in my media basket. Hopefully by the time my RODI Filters come in (by Wednesday) this will have removed most of the phosphates and I can limit the amount I then add to the tank.

 

[Spendley]

I don't think the phos-zorb did much. I tested .34 last week, and last night got readings of .27 and .31...so while it did a good amount I clearly just had an absurd amount of phosphates.

New filters came in yesterday and readings were 004 TDS and .0 phosphates. This is such a relief! I've got a long way to go though, 40% water change this AM. Will do another 40% tomorrow AM and probably another 40% Saturday (is this too much? I want to rid of the remaining phosphates but clearly don't want to shock the system).

I feel like an idiot; my negligence on changing filters caused the phosphate spike and resulted in the death of a few of my corals and my RBTA . The tank is about 15 months old, and the RODI unit 7, so it was a failure on my part to take into account some of the long term maintenance requirements. Live and learn I suppose

 

[pickupman66]

Spendly.. been there. done that. lost alot of sps.

 

[SantaMonica]

Your rocks of full of phosphate. Takes 12 to 18 months. And your RODI has been adding phosphate, which was being sort of taken care of by the rocks, but no more. And of course all food has phosphate (my fav phosphorus is peanut butter). This might help:

Nutrient Export

What do all algae (and cyano too) need to survive? Nutrients. What are nutrients? Ammonia/ammonium, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate and urea are the major ones. Which ones cause most of the algae in your tank? These same ones. Why can't you just remove these nutrients and eliminate all the algae in your tank? Because these nutrients are the result of the animals you keep.

So how do your animals "make" these nutrients? Well a large part the nutrients come from pee (urea). Pee is very high in urea and ammonia, and these are a favorite food of algae and some bacteria. This is why your glass will always need cleaning; because the pee hits the glass before anything else, and algae on the glass consume the ammonia and urea immediately (using photosynthesis) and grow more. In the ocean and lakes, phytoplankton consume the ammonia and urea in open water, and seaweed consume it in shallow areas, but in a tank you don't have enough space or water volume for this, and, your other filters or animals often remove or kill the phytoplankton or seaweed anyway. So, the nutrients stay in your tank.

Then the ammonia/ammonium hits your rocks, and the periphyton on them consumes more ammonia and urea. Periphyton is both algae and animals, and is the reason your rocks change color after a few weeks. Then the ammonia goes inside the rock, or hits your sand, and bacteria there convert it into nitrite and nitrate. However, the nutrients are still in your tank.

Also let's not forget phosphate, which comes from solid organic food particles. When these particles are eaten by microbes and clean up crew, the organic phosphorus in them is converted into phosphate. However, the nutrients are still in your tank.

So whenever you have algae "problems", you simply have not exported enough nutrients compared to how much you have been feeding (note: live rock can absorb phosphate for up to a year, making it seem like there was never a problem. Then, there is a problem).

So just increase your nutrient exports. You could also reduce feeding, and this has the same effect, but it's certainly not fun when you want to feed your animals.

And:

Phosphate flow out of rocks

Many people, when they get their nutrients low for the first time, get worried when more (not less) algae starts to grow on their rocks. It seems really strange, especially when nitrate and phosphate have gone lower than before. What is happening is that phosphate is coming out of the rocks. Remember, phosphate is invisible, so you can only see the effects of it, and it always "flows" from higher concentrations to lower concentrations (just like heat does).

Example: If your room is warm, and you put a cold object on the floor, heat from the air in the room will "flow" into the object until the object and the air are the same temperature. Example 2: If you put a hot object on the floor, heat will "flow" out of the object and go into the air in the room, again, until the air and the object are the same temperature. Now suppose you open your windows (in the winter). The warm air in your room will go out the windows, and it will get colder in the room. The object on the floor is now warmer than the air, so heat will flow out of the object and into the air, and then out the window.

Think of phosphate as the heat, and your rocks as the object, and your windows as the scrubber. As the scrubber pulls phosphate out of the water, the phosphate level in the water drops. Now, since the phosphate level in the water is lower than the phosphate level in the rocks, phosphate flows from the rocks into the water, and then from the water into the scrubber. This continues until the phosphate levels in the rocks and water are level again. And remember, you can't see this invisible flow.

This flow causes an interesting thing to happen. As the phosphate comes out of the rocks, it then becomes available to feed algae as soon as the phosphate reaches the surface of the rocks where there is light. So, since the surface of the rocks is rough and has light, it starts growing MORE algae there (not less) as the phosphate comes out of the rocks. This is a pretty amazing thing to see for the first time, because if you did not know what was happening you would probably think that the algae was mysteriously being added to your tank. Here are the signs of phosphate coming out of the rocks:

1. The rocks are older, and have slowly developed algae problems in the past year.

2. Your filters have recently started to work well, or you made them stronger.

3. Nitrate and phosphate measurements in the water are low, usually the lowest they have been in a long time.

4. Green hair algae (not brown) on the rocks has increased in certain spots, usually on corners and protrusions at the top.

5. The glass has not needed cleaning as much.


Many people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough it does if you keep nutrients low enough in the water. How long does it continue? For 2 months to a year, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how much feeding you do, and how strong your filters are. But one day you will see patches of white rock that were covered in green hair the day before; this is a sure sign that the algae are losing their phosphate supply from the rocks and can no longer hold on. Now it's just a matter of days before the rocks are clear.