All fish have ich?

[theguy67]

So, I am not trying to instigate a fight or battle, but I will offer this point of view.
In this hobby, we too many times offer our experiences or what we believe to be science as absolute fact. We all should stop offering these huge, sweeping, and concrete words of advice about stuff that may not be true. In biology and medicine (and this applies for my colleagues in veterinary medicine), there is no such thing as an absolute! And I mean there are NO absolutes. If you look in this very blog/forum, there are a host of posts from people who have systems w/ livestock that have been QTed for months at a time, and they all of a sudden have an outbreak out of the blue w/ no new additions in years. And if it's truly just a parasite of captive fish, it should be a cycle that is all too easy to break. Even more, there are way TOO MANY posts from people who say the only cures for ICH are fresh water dips and cooper. However, Naphthoquinone (the active ingredient in ICH Attack) has been well documented to cure ICH in peer-reviewed, blinded, emperical study. In fact, it is so good at killing single celled parasites like ICH, it is also currently being studied as a cure in humans for malaria (also a single celled parasite).
So what I am saying is that we should stop telling those of us who are young to this hobby (such as myself) all of these absolutes which are more based in mythology and tradition, rather than fact and science... But even as my little post would allude, this is just my belief... b/c remember, there is no such thing as an absolute in biology! :nerd:
So yes, I do indeed believe that ICH is present in all systems. B/c for me, it doesn't make biological sense that it could be any other way.

Love these conversaitions!
Cheers, folks! Continue to press on!

You kinda contradicted yourself when you said "there is no such thing as absolute!" "We should stop offering these...concrete statements.", but you continued on to agree with an absolute statement,..that ich is in all of our systems.

Also, how does it make biological sense for it to be in all systems? As you said, "is no such thing as absolute in biology". Sure, people may have had a spontaneous outbreak after quarantined new arrivals, cooking dry rock, etc., but that does NOT mean the ich was their from day one. This is a microscopic parasite; therefore, it is nearly impossible to determine when it was introduced. Who's to say it was not seen on an infected fish after quarantine?, or the dips were not preformed properly? How do we know the quarantine, or dip were successful? Just because you can't see it, dosen't mean its not there (this could be said for both sides). This hobby is not an exact science. We use info gained from the internet and apply it to our own tanks. A lot of it is guess work, trial and error.. ..again, although inductive logic is used throughout the life sciences, it is not a very strong argument to stand on. It only takes ONE tank without ich to destroy your theory.

 

[rayn]

I believe ich is introduced through LFS, but we as hobbyists can eradicate it from our systems through QT and HT. Can a established healthy tank have it and fight it off? Sure. But I would prefer to not have to deal with another issue in my tank, there are enough battles to have there. Eliminate it up front and save yourself the headache later. Any system can be ich free if wanted.

 

[Kworker]

If ICH is present in my tank, and in order for ICH to survive it has to eat, would I not eventually see the ICH on the fish? I mean a fish that is infected with the parasite will eventually show symptoms of some kind, don't you think?
I for one believe it is possible to have a parasite free tank

Yes and no.. it will have to continue to feed to fulfill its lifecycle. However, the parasite targets the gills first. A lot of fish can actually be carrying the parasite and you won't even notice. The only sign may be a slight inflammation or a higher respiration rate.

 

[Kworker]

And if a tank had ich, and then (to add to this argument) were to be left fishless/fallow, then there would be nothing to eat at all which would necessitate starvation (after a period of time) which would mean the tank would no longer have ich. Then if a fish without ich were introduced, there's no way he could get ich (since it is no longer present in the system).

+1..

 

[hybridazn]

I believe that you can have a system that is ich free. To sum up a long story I have battled ich 3 times and all 3 times were catastrophic. But after properly qt all additions my tank is ich free. How do I know? I have a PBT which is known to some as a magnet for it and it has been healthy for going on 3 years now as well as all my other tank inhabitants.

As for stress causing an outbreak I don't believe that either. I do believe it can contribute to it becoming worse for the fish that is already infected. fish are exposed to many types of stress in a day and if ich isn't present it won't come down with it.

 

[Evan J]

This debate is surprising in that seasoned reef keepers should know there are far too many variables to say Ich is not present in a tank at all. Fallow tank? I had a 75 gal that was fallow for over six months and when two hippos went one had Ich in less than 24 hours. Being fallow of fish doesn't mean that Ich parasites or larve don't have other things they can attach to. Closed system? Our planet is the ultimate closed system but we have not been able to totally get rid of many of parasites that feed on humans.
It might be nice to think we have perfected our tank keeping skills to the point where our tanks are free of all the things we have to deal with. The reality is that as with medical science keeping us healthy we have learned enough to keep our tanks healthy,

 

[Pete polyp]

If a tank was never introduced the parasite then it is free of ich. It may not be likely, but it happens. My 29 is ich free. My 40 I have lived with ich, and made sure the fish were fed well and have survived with it. Nothing is impossible and for someone to insinuate it is impossible for every system to have ich is preposterous. Its very possible for this to occur.

 

[Pfisherman]

Do all dogs have fleas? Do all kids have lice? And does every person have crabs? No.

 

[mrcoffee2]

I kinda agree with the lfs, I woukd say its always in your tank. Proof is my Hippo, she'll always come down with it here and there, but never the other fish, and I havent added a thing to my tank in a very long time.

My LFS has had a hippo for 2 yrs in a 400g tank that is really beautiful. There is maybe 20 other fish in the tank and the hippo is the only one that gets ich. Always able to fight it off

 

[Reefing Madness]

My LFS has had a hippo for 2 yrs in a 400g tank that is really beautiful. There is maybe 20 other fish in the tank and the hippo is the only one that gets ich. Always able to fight it off

Right on!!

 

[Daniel@R2R]

My LFS has had a hippo for 2 yrs in a 400g tank that is really beautiful. There is maybe 20 other fish in the tank and the hippo is the only one that gets ich. Always able to fight it off

But in a system where ich is present, most if not all of the fish will have the ich parasite even if they're not showing symptoms. It's kind of like having a dog with one flea versus having a dog with 1000's of fleas. In the case with ich, the parasite is microscopic, so it doesn't show up until the parasite is overwhelmingly present. A fish with a solid immune system can keep the parasite at bay while a stressed/weakened fish will succumb to it and show the white spots that we're all familiar with. Remember that if ich is in a system, it's not just present when it is visible. That's just one stage of its life cycle.

In a system where ich is not present, there is no danger of any outbreak (until it is somehow introduced via an infected fish or via the water on a coral or invert from an infected system). The fact that your lfs has a hippo with ich outbreaks just proves that ich is in that system.

 

[ritter6788]

I think some are debating different points here?

A tank can have ich for a long time and the fish can survive/fight it off. A tank can also be free of ich. The life cycle of ich is well documented. It's not a mysterious disease that appears from no where. It's a living parasite that has to be introduced into your tank. If one of your fish has ich then they all (most, depending on what type of fish) have it, just not showing signs of it. If you introduce fish to a tank with ich your tank will always have ich. It doesn't go away on it's own even though the fish may not be showing signs of it.

Most people view these fish as pets and choose to keep their pets healthy and pest free as possible. I choose to keep mine pest free. I don't want my fish to have to fight off anything so living with ich isn't an option for my tanks.

Like posted above I also wouldn't leave my dog/cat with fleas or my kids with lice.

 

[mrcoffee2]

I think some are debating different points here?

A tank can have ich for a long time and the fish can survive/fight it off. A tank can also be free of ich. The life cycle of ich is well documented. It's not a mysterious disease that appears from no where. It's a living parasite that has to be introduced into your tank. If one of your fish has ich then they all (most, depending on what type of fish) have it, just not showing signs of it. If you introduce fish to a tank with ich your tank will always have ich. It doesn't go away on it's own even though the fish may not be showing signs of it.

Most people view these fish as pets and choose to keep their pets healthy and pest free as possible. I choose to keep mine pest free. I don't want my fish to have to fight off anything so living with ich isn't an option for my tanks.

Like posted above I also wouldn't leave my dog/cat with fleas or my kids with lice.

Some one needs to invent frontline for fish.

 

[Ollie_Fowler]

Ok so i haven't really had a straight answer but i am treating all my fish with hypo salinity at the moment so my tank is clear and will use the same process for any new fish.
Will this work?

 

[hybridazn]

Ok so i haven't really had a straight answer but i am treating all my fish with hypo salinity at the moment so my tank is clear and will use the same process for any new fish.
Will this work?

That's the process I use. Keep it in hypo for at least 6 weeks after you don't see any more signs of ich on the fish. Don't start the 6 weeks until it looks clear of ich.

 

[purdy]

I don't understand this comparison of fleas and ich. Aren't fleas an insect? And ich a parasite? Here's my two cents. I had a major die off in my tank to the point that I drained it and started over. I got a larger tank and started with a sterile system. Boiled the rock, sand and anything else from the old tank that was going in the tank. I was pretty confident that I would be free of bacteria and parasites, specifically ich. Within two weeks of having fish in there I had an ich outbreak. QT proved ineffective for ich in my book. Now I have a PBT who gets ich and I do nothing to treat it. The first three times I freaked out. Pulled him and treated him, just so he could get it a week later upon his return to the tank. Now I just keep him in the tank and he fights off the ich outbreak within a few days. None of the other fish show signs of ich but I'm sure they have it also but have good immune systems. Also I don't think stress is responsible for ich although I do think it weakens the immune system which leaves the fish more susceptible to being affected by ich.

 

[ritter6788]

Aren't fleas an insect? And ich a parasite?

Flea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fleas are external parasites, living by hematophagy off the blood of mammals and birds.

Cryptocaryon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cryptocaryon irritans, also known as marine white spot disease or marine ich,^[1] is a species of ciliate protozoa that parasitizes marine fish,

Within two weeks of having fish in there I had an ich outbreak. QT proved ineffective for ich in my book.

Did you treat in the QT or just hold them and release into your tank? QT is ineffective unless you hold them for a proper amount of time and treat as needed with the proper methods or medications.

 

[Kworker]

Ok so i haven't really had a straight answer but i am treating all my fish with hypo salinity at the moment so my tank is clear and will use the same process for any new fish.
Will this work?

Honestly, I think you did get a straight answer.. Plenty of people are saying its NOT present if you take the necessary steps to make sure it doesn't get into your system. Most if not everybody is stating that it is a parasite, and parasites need to feed to continue to live or fulfill a life cycle. Remove its food source it dies, kill it with the treatment of your choice and it dies.

If its all dead, its all gone. Can you rid your home of bedbugs? yes, its supposedly a pain.. but possible. A parasite is a parasite, unless ich is reclassified as a virus than the facts are correct on how to get rid of it.

 

[purdy]

Ritter two sentences down in that article it also says fleas are an insect. Don believe everything you read on Wiki.

 

[ritter6788]

Ritter two sentences down in that article it also says fleas are an insect. Don believe everything you read on Wiki.

Both are parasites. Personally I don't want my fish to have insects or parasites.