Cyanobacteria for a year - What's feeding it?

[mann1139]

Hello Fellow Aquarists -

I'm at the end of my rope with this problem and after a fish death a couple weeks ago, I'm looking for outside advice. I have constantly had cyanobacteria constantly growing in the tank, and I can't figure out what's feeding it. I thought I had it under control a couple months ago, added a Butterfly, but it died about 60 days after being added right as another outbreak began.

So it started when I bought a used 125g tank with a 30g sump a year ago. New sand, 40lb new rock (more on that later), new pump and powerheads. Plan was to be a FOWLR so I could finally have 'big' fish.

I have a Sicce Silent 4.0 Pump, split into four returns, running wide open, plus three PH with a total flow of ~2,000 GPH. By my calculations, that should be 'enough' flow.

I sent my RO/DI out for ICP earlier this year to check if phosphate was leaching through, and the only trace element it found was silicon (25 microgram/L), so I added an additional carbon block and split my cation and anion to knock that down. I also don't see any cyano growth in any of my other tanks, and they all share the same RO/DI source. I'm using Instant Ocean salt in all, if that matters.

I'm going to be general on test readings since this has been going on for a year. Salinity stays around 1.025, Alk around 80, nitrate has been <10 since I replaced the chaeto. I have a bad eye for pH tests, so I'm going to say its between 7.8 and 8.0, but all of my tanks are in that range. Phosphate test reads <0.25; however, that could be because the cyano and chaeto are capturing it all. Oh, and the chaeto exploded once I added it in September (previous batch was a transfer from another tank and never 'took'), but that didn't stop the cyano from returning again.

The only possible source I can come up with for the phosphates feeding the cyanobacteria is my live rock. I bought 40lb new, but I also had some rock from an older tank lying around, so I bleached it using what I thought was the right type of bleach, let it sit in FW with a PH for several months, and then added it to the tank in March.

Other than that, its the substrate, but that's been in the tank for a year now so I have to assume that can't still be leaching phosphates.

I've been in the hobby for 15 years and had a couple cyano outbreaks that were easily solved. This has not been. I have done 'no lights weeks', I have done Red Slime Remover. I know I can kill the cyano. What I can't figure out is: How does it keep coming back? Am I missing something obvious? Should I remove the suspect rock? ICP the water and see if there is a spike on some other element that's leaching out from somewhere? Buy a bigger pump to increase flow?

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

It is my experience that the RedSlime removers work very well. I have tried many of them and they do work, but sometimes you can use a slime remover and within a month you are back in the same position you started in. The Cyano is back just as bad as before. This sounds like your problem.

I believe what is happening is that almost all of the cyano was killed, but once the cyano was gone it just grew back because there is an open niche for a cyano-like bacteria that scavenges the tank for Phosphate primarily as well as other nutrients in the system.

I have had much more success if after removing the cyano I add in some microbacter 7. I believe this gives the little bit of cyano left a competitor so that the cyano can be replaced with beneficial non ugly bacteria.

I have not done a bacterial analysis of the water to confirm this is what is happening, but it makes sense and does seem to work well for me. I would suggest you get some chemiclean and microbacter 7 and give it a go.

Boyd Enterprises ChemiClean, 2 grams

Boyd Enterprises ChemiClean removes red cyano bacteria and oxidizes organic sludge and sediment. Chemi-Clean contains no phosphates, algacides or erythromycin succinate.

www.marineandreef.com

Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacter7 500 ml

Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacter7 500 ml is a complete bioculture for establishing biological filtration. MicroBacter increases dissolved oxygen production.

www.marineandreef.com

 

[Reef and Dive]

The only possible source I can come up with for the phosphates feeding the cyanobacteria is my live rock.

This could help.

Redfield ratio revisitedhttp://www.reef2reef.com/threads/redfield-ratio-revisited-–-what-are-we-doing-wrong.742503

 

[ReefGeezer]

I like to use a DIY Coral Snow/MB7 solution per @SunnyX. Here's a link: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/extreme-water-clarity-and-cyano-eradication-made-easy.916381/

This has worked for me. I think it accomplishes two tasks that help with Cyano. It binds excess dissolved organics and places the bacteria I believe is in the MB7 on the tank's surfaces as the coral snow settles. The coral snow part of the solution seems pretty harmless. I think it is easy to overdose the MB7 though.

 

[JSchwarz]

I have a Sicce Silent 4.0 Pump, split into four returns, running wide open, plus three PH with a total flow of ~2,000 GPH. By my calculations, that should be 'enough' flow.

This sounds like very low flow for that size tank. Even if it is sufficient for FOWLER you could have a lot of dead spots on the rock. Many powerheads sized for that size tank will do up to 5000gph+ alone.

 

[Graemesreef]

Are you sure its not just a really bad case of diatoms? What gets me is the red slime remover didn't touch it and you were unknowingly pumping all that extra silicate into a relatively new FOWLR. Just thinking out loud, got any pics?

 

[gbroadbridge]

Hello Fellow Aquarists -

I'm at the end of my rope with this problem and after a fish death a couple weeks ago, I'm looking for outside advice. I have constantly had cyanobacteria constantly growing in the tank, and I can't figure out what's feeding it. I thought I had it under control a couple months ago, added a Butterfly, but it died about 60 days after being added right as another outbreak began.

So it started when I bought a used 125g tank with a 30g sump a year ago. New sand, 40lb new rock (more on that later), new pump and powerheads. Plan was to be a FOWLR so I could finally have 'big' fish.

I have a Sicce Silent 4.0 Pump, split into four returns, running wide open, plus three PH with a total flow of ~2,000 GPH. By my calculations, that should be 'enough' flow.

I think you need a lot more flow in the tank to keep waste circulating until it is filtered out.

 

[mann1139]

It is my experience that the RedSlime removers work very well. I have tried many of them and they do work, but sometimes you can use a slime remover and within a month you are back in the same position you started in. The Cyano is back just as bad as before. This sounds like your problem.

I believe what is happening is that almost all of the cyano was killed, but once the cyano was gone it just grew back because there is an open niche for a cyano-like bacteria that scavenges the tank for Phosphate primarily as well as other nutrients in the system.

I have had much more success if after removing the cyano I add in some microbacter 7. I believe this gives the little bit of cyano left a competitor so that the cyano can be replaced with beneficial non ugly bacteria.

I have not done a bacterial analysis of the water to confirm this is what is happening, but it makes sense and does seem to work well for me. I would suggest you get some chemiclean and microbacter 7 and give it a go.

Boyd Enterprises ChemiClean, 2 grams

Boyd Enterprises ChemiClean removes red cyano bacteria and oxidizes organic sludge and sediment. Chemi-Clean contains no phosphates, algacides or erythromycin succinate.

www.marineandreef.com

Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacter7 500 ml

Brightwell Aquatics MicroBacter7 500 ml is a complete bioculture for establishing biological filtration. MicroBacter increases dissolved oxygen production.

www.marineandreef.com

Microfauna imbalance does sound plausible. For whatever reason the cyano has outcompeted the 'right' bacteria, and now the 'right stuff' can't get a foothold.

 

[mann1139]

This could help.

Redfield ratio revisitedhttp://www.reef2reef.com/threads/redfield-ratio-revisited-–-what-are-we-doing-wrong.742503

My concern is that if nitrogen is only entering the tank through feeding (and leaving through the chaeto mostly), where is the phosphate entering, since that is leaving through phosphate removal products, vacuuming out algae, and water changes.

I agree the N ratio is off, I just can't figure out why the P is so high.

 

[mann1139]

This sounds like very low flow for that size tank. Even if it is sufficient for FOWLER you could have a lot of dead spots on the rock. Many powerheads sized for that size tank will do up to 5000gph+ alone.

So Sicce's published curve for the Silent 4 at 1.5m head is about 700 gph. That plus the PH puts me well above 10x turnover. The hobby tends to focus on reefs for turnover, which is where the high 20-40x numbers come from, but 10x for a FOWLR should be sufficient.

That said, I may look to upgrade the pump since the big PH in the tank is getting up there in age.

 

[mann1139]

Are you sure its not just a really bad case of diatoms? What gets me is the red slime remover didn't touch it and you were unknowingly pumping all that extra silicate into a relatively new FOWLR. Just thinking out loud, got any pics?

RSR does deal with the problem temporarily, but it comes back a month or so later in force. That's what really concerns me.

Its so red and slimy that it appears to be textbook cyano. The next outbreak is just starting. I just added some Phosguard to see if that is able to stop an outbreak. I'll try to get pictures of it if it is 'big' enough to show.

Converting from silicon micrograms/L to what that means in silicate isn't not easily answered through Google; however, I don't think the reading was high enough to drive algae growth. Its been three months since I upgraded my RO/DI, and given my water change rate any silicon in the source water should be 'used up' by now, but this stuff just keeps growing.

 

[Reef and Dive]

My concern is that if nitrogen is only entering the tank through feeding (and leaving through the chaeto mostly), where is the phosphate entering, since that is leaving through phosphate removal products, vacuuming out algae, and water changes.

I agree the N ratio is off, I just can't figure out why the P is so high.

Since you do not have high nitrates, it becomes a limiting factor for carbon dosing, biopellets and even your chaeto or other methods. If it were my tank I would consider dosing nitrate.

 

[mann1139]

Attached is a photo of the sand today. Photo tinted itself very blue (I thought I had the lights on 10k mode).

It looks less orange and more pink in person.

The growth since I posted yesterday was significant, so I went ahead and started another week with the lights off and added chemi-clean.

I'm going to hit it with another chemi-clean later in the week (after the first water change) to see if it can knock out any survivors.

Also ordering MicroBacter7 to reset the nitrate/phosphate bacteria ratio.