DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

[East1]

This thread was fascinating.

I've been running a 'hands off' tank for about 18 months now.
It runs entirely on dosing (8 channels and a suite of ionic replmeneshment and nutrients)
and doesn't get fed anything other than the occasional flake feeding perhaps once a week.


It's a 75litre tank full of coral, with 3 damselfish and a bicolour angelfish. The tank gets fed N and P and the algae and pods sustain the fish and have done so since the tank was established, however various test periods resulted in lost corals while establishing a strong dosing regime.

I've recently switched out (in the last 5 months) from Aquavitro synthesis to just KNO3 powder and have seen a decline in the 'vibrancy' of some of the corals - after a while, Nitrate accumulated and I wasn't dilligent enoughwith water testing to recognise this. It seems that dosing nitrate has a very narrow window where the corals will start to decline from too little - or too much accumulation.

I've just switched out to ammonium chloride (as I already dose an alkalinity supplement as part of the dosing regime) and so I am extremely eager to see what difference this makes in terms of coral health and any algal population shifts.

I wanted to drop a quick note about the tank,

When i started on this thread, i had another nitrate spike a couple weeks ago so some of the acro frags weren’t the healthiest and my soft corals had slimed over in some instances.

I have been running Ammonium Chloride now for about 5 days, started with a 1/5th strength solution then ramped up to equivalent of 1ppm nitrate per day. previously i was dosing around this level post nitrate spike.

When i started the tank was growing a lot of algae, hair algae, cyanobacteria and some dinoflagellates which i associate with algae’s that can outcompete corals as these have come and gone previously. The tank would need a clean of the glass every 3 days or be impossible to see in (brown and some green algae’s on the glass primarily.

Since switching, i’ve noted that the cyano colonies have disintegrated almost entirely, my LPS and some soft corals that aren’t dormant are showing a kind of “glow” and turgidity that i associate with being well fed (in acropora, the thickness of the coenosarc shows a strong picture into coral health, and this effects how it reflects light, they can look sort of pearlescent)

The algae on the glass have stopped almost entirely and the glass cleaned itself from all the snails, and some of the soft corals have expanded and opened up somewhat.

Based on just this 5 day trial i would say that the ammonium compound directly feeds corals in a way that No3 does not. I now somewhat understand why i had lost the “vibrancy” when switching from a compound nitrogen source to a flat KNO3.

@Randy Holmes-Farley can you advise on whether it would cause any interactions mixing up ammonia chloride with potassium nitrate to create a combined nitrogen source? if not i can dedicate 2 doser channels but it may simplify things.

due to controlling direct dosages of all my nutrients, i get to observe some interesting relationships and ratios over time. based on this short trial I suspect controlling the ratio of ammonium to nitrate dosage would allow for a relative coral to algal growth and i want to combine the two to ensure that some algae grows to sustain the snail and fish/pod population.

will keep monitoring, i’ve upped the ammonium dosage by 50% today, will do a few water tests for records

 

[East1]

Also, this thread may be good reading on the topic if you ignore the arguments between OP's posts it makes a good account of changes :

Experiment - Dosing Ammonia - Reef Central Online Community

Experiment - Dosing Ammonia Advanced Topics

www.reefcentral.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wanted to drop a quick note about the tank,

When i started on this thread, i had another nitrate spike a couple weeks ago so some of the acro frags weren’t the healthiest and my soft corals had slimed over in some instances.

I have been running Ammonium Chloride now for about 5 days, started with a 1/5th strength solution then ramped up to equivalent of 1ppm nitrate per day. previously i was dosing around this level post nitrate spike.

When i started the tank was growing a lot of algae, hair algae, cyanobacteria and some dinoflagellates which i associate with algae’s that can outcompete corals as these have come and gone previously. The tank would need a clean of the glass every 3 days or be impossible to see in (brown and some green algae’s on the glass primarily.

Since switching, i’ve noted that the cyano colonies have disintegrated almost entirely, my LPS and some soft corals that aren’t dormant are showing a kind of “glow” and turgidity that i associate with being well fed (in acropora, the thickness of the coenosarc shows a strong picture into coral health, and this effects how it reflects light, they can look sort of pearlescent)

The algae on the glass have stopped almost entirely and the glass cleaned itself from all the snails, and some of the soft corals have expanded and opened up somewhat.

Based on just this 5 day trial i would say that the ammonium compound directly feeds corals in a way that No3 does not. I now somewhat understand why i had lost the “vibrancy” when switching from a compound nitrogen source to a flat KNO3.

@Randy Holmes-Farley can you advise on whether it would cause any interactions mixing up ammonia chloride with potassium nitrate to create a combined nitrogen source? if not i can dedicate 2 doser channels but it may simplify things.

due to controlling direct dosages of all my nutrients, i get to observe some interesting relationships and ratios over time. based on this short trial I suspect controlling the ratio of ammonium to nitrate dosage would allow for a relative coral to algal growth and i want to combine the two to ensure that some algae grows to sustain the snail and fish/pod population.

will keep monitoring, i’ve upped the ammonium dosage by 50% today, will do a few water tests for records

Potassium or sodium or calcium nitrate can be mixed with ammonium bicarbonate or chloride without issue.

 

[lbacha]

Just found this post and I have some reading to do. I have considered dosing ammonia for a while as I’ve been dosing nitrate and phosphate for years (low fish load tank with tons of coral) I’m going to do some research and will start a slow dose of ammonia while weaning the tank off of nitrates and phosphate dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just found this post and I have some reading to do. I have considered dosing ammonia for a while as I’ve been dosing nitrate and phosphate for years (low fish load tank with tons of coral) I’m going to do some research and will start a slow dose of ammonia while weaning the tank off of nitrates and phosphate dosing.

Sounds good. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Skep18]

I'm not sure if its warranted but I've been reading more about dosing lately and realizing many dosing products add sodium and chloride that may or may not accumulate to undesirable levels. If they were to accumulate to that undesirable point, it seems to make sense to seek dosing options that would not rely on such elemental compounds that included those two elements.

In searching for suppliers of this thread's suggested Ammonium Bicarbonate I was inadvertently provided a link for Loudwolf's Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic ((NH4)2HPO4). I am not educated enough to know, hence my asking, but seeing that it includes both NH4 and PO4, would this dose both a nitrate-producing ammonium as well as a phosphate solution in one mixture without the (I believe) unwanted addition of another element? I don't know what that "H" would do to the tank and/or result in admittedly but I thought it was an interesting enough idea to ask. I also don't know if this compound is hazardous. Google didn't turn up any results in Reef2Reef for this, at least not in a quick search.

EDIT: I'm also realizing I'm ignorant as to any ionic implications and/or how available this NH4 or PO4 would be in the water column. I'm hoping/guessing someone knows the answer as to why this hasn't been brought up before. To an educated mind in this field, it may be very obvious.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure if its warranted but I've been reading more about dosing lately and realizing many dosing products add sodium and chloride that may or may not accumulate to undesirable levels. If they were to accumulate to that undesirable point, it seems to make sense to seek dosing options that would not rely on such elemental compounds that included those two elements.

Yes, that is a concern with some methods, and many methods deal with it, such as TM Balling putting all those elements in Part C, and ESV B-ionic putting them in one of the two parts.

IMO, it is unlikely that you need the same amount of N as P, but if by chance you do for some period of time, then ammonium phosphate can work.

 

[Skep18]

Yes, that is a concern with some methods, and many methods deal with it, such as TM Balling putting all those elements in Part C, and ESV B-ionic putting them in one of the two parts.

IMO, it is unlikely that you need the same amount of N as P, but if by chance you do for some period of time, then ammonium phosphate can work.

Thinking about it a bit more, I did realize with what appears to be one compound of each, you'd probably be way over dosing PO4 or way under dosing NO3...

If someone wanted to dose both PO4 and NO3 with one doser, could you mix Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic into ammonium/nitrate solution at some ratio like 100:1 to maintain that preferred balance?

Edit: As I write that I realize why complicate it? I'm guessing one could ratio in phosphate with a traditional phosphate compound... Lol. But ty for taking the time to respond.

 

[Skep18]

I've been dosing 6% Ammonium hydroxide for more than year each morning (1 drop per 10 gallons). It simply made sense to me to feed the nitrogen cycle and create the nitrate naturally rather than just dosing the end product. The fact that corals and algae can also utilize it and it's immensely cheaper than dosing nitrate are bonuses. My nitrate level fluctuated a lot with nitrate dosing but is stable at 10ppm with ammonia dosing. Not sure why that is, but I'm happy about it.

I'm guessing the "hydroxide" part has the potential to be the source of a pH boost, correct me if I'm wrong. However, I'm also guessing the quantity dosed (1 drop/10gal/day) isn't enough to appreciably change the pH. Interesting thought though. More towards the consideration of reducing imbalance of Sodium and Chloride... Which clearly I think I am over thinking...

 

[Ky_acc]

@Randy Holmes-Farley could the ammonium chloride solution be mixed in with my kalkwasser (standard solution of 6grams/gal) ?

Was thinking this might be a good way to dose since large amounts dosed at once should be avoided, and I drip my Kalk continuously 24/7

I always try and reduce complexity of my systems by restricting the equipment / dosing pumps I add

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thinking about it a bit more, I did realize with what appears to be one compound of each, you'd probably be way over dosing PO4 or way under dosing NO3...

If someone wanted to dose both PO4 and NO3 with one doser, could you mix Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic into ammonium/nitrate solution at some ratio like 100:1 to maintain that preferred balance?

Edit: As I write that I realize why complicate it? I'm guessing one could ratio in phosphate with a traditional phosphate compound... Lol. But ty for taking the time to respond.

I would use and you can mix (except the calcium nitrate) the additives I recommend for N and P dosing. Sodium or calcium nitrate or ammonium chloride or bicarbonate for N, and sodium phosphate for phosphate. All are inexpensive in food grade.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley could the ammonium chloride solution be mixed in with my kalkwasser (standard solution of 6grams/gal) ?

Was thinking this might be a good way to dose since large amounts dosed at once should be avoided, and I drip my Kalk continuously 24/7

I always try and reduce complexity of my systems by restricting the equipment / dosing pumps I add

Yes, but it will smell of ammonia and some may evaporate if left open.

 

[Skep18]

I would use and you can mix (except the calcium nitrate) the additives I recommend for N and P dosing. Sodium or calcium nitrate or ammonium chloride or bicarbonate for N, and sodium phosphate for phosphate. All are inexpensive in food grade.

Not to derail this thread but for P, your recommendation of sodium phosphate, I'm finding a "monobasic" and a "dibasic" option from Loudwolf. Do you perhaps have a recommendation and/or a thread discussing this already? From years ago, I had ordered and dosed Loudwolf's Trisodium Phosphate. I'm guessing due to the excess sodium, this product is less ideal?

 

[Skep18]

I'd use the ammonium bicarbonate if I were to do it.

Can you elaborate on your preference for ammonium bicarbonate over other options?

Discussion with Sanjay and Mike Paletta talking about trying ammonia dosing recently and that they found positive effects from it.
Reefbum Sanjay and Mike Paletta 12/12/23 (from 5 min to 16min)

I'll apologize as I am reading through all of these posts but per the above video, Sanjay notes using ammonium hydroxide. Just wondering as to why that might be if anyone has any insight.

I hear "hydroxide" and wonder if any of these compounds are more or less hazardous to handle than one another. Something like choosing sodium carbonate over sodium hydroxide for alkalinity simply because sodium hydroxide can be possibly concerningly hazardous to lay-people in handling. I have no doubt compounds can be handled responsibly but I, like many on here I'm sure, have little kids that love to do bad things. Avoiding such potential hazards would certainly take priority.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not to derail this thread but for P, your recommendation of sodium phosphate, I'm finding a "monobasic" and a "dibasic" option from Loudwolf. Do you perhaps have a recommendation and/or a thread discussing this already? From years ago, I had ordered and dosed Loudwolf's Trisodium Phosphate. I'm guessing due to the excess sodium, this product is less ideal?

Any of mono, di or trisodium phosphate are fine, as long as they are food grade. Not sodium tripolyphosphate.

Use the James Planted Tank calculator online and the entry for phosphate from potassium phosphate. It is close enough.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you elaborate on your preference for ammonium bicarbonate over other options?



I'll apologize as I am reading through all of these posts but per the above video, Sanjay notes using ammonium hydroxide. Just wondering as to why that might be if anyone has any insight.

I hear "hydroxide" and wonder if any of these compounds are more or less hazardous to handle than one another. Something like choosing sodium carbonate over sodium hydroxide for alkalinity simply because sodium hydroxide can be possibly concerningly hazardous to lay-people in handling. I have no doubt compounds can be handled responsibly but I, like many on here I'm sure, have little kids that love to do bad things. Avoiding such potential hazards would certainly take priority.

I discuss pros and cons of the two ammonium compounds I recommend in post 1 of this thread. Other chemicals may be ok, if you can find them suitably pure, but I cannot think of a reason any would be better.

Both of my additives are food grade and should not be a high health risk. But keep them away from kids.

The pH of ammonium bicarbonate is much lower than ammonium hydroxide.

 

[Skep18]

The process of nitrification lowers pH and depletes alkalinity.

One common theme I think I'm seeing, people are correlating their increase in alkalinity consumption with a net positive effect on coral growth. While I certainly see the obvious reason why one might reach that idea, does the above suggest this correlation might be misplaced? Is it possible the increase in alk consumption is a result of processing the ammonia as stated above?

If so, for those of us that employ a one-part solution for supplementing alkalinity and calcium (i.e. all for reef or kalkwasser), would/could this increase in alk consumption throw off the "balanced formula" and exacerbate an imbalance of the two compounds? Likewise, I could see one potentially employing this to correct an existing imbalance as well. If a one-part dosing method produced too much alkalinity, this could be tuned to bring that down alleviating the requirement for supplemental alkalinity dosing.

 

[Skep18]

Any of mono, di or trisodium phosphate are fine, as long as they are food grade. Not sodium tripolyphosphate.

Use the James Planted Tank calculator online and the entry for phosphate from potassium phosphate. It is close enough.

Do the mono or di imply an increase in hazard or potential reactivity? A quick Google search shows, "monobasic acid has only one replaceable hydrogen atom, while a dibasic acid has two replaceable hydrogen atoms." I'm not sure what exactly to make of that but "replaceable hydrogen atom" sounds like a potential reactiveness. I might be wrong though (of course).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One common theme I think I'm seeing, people are correlating their increase in alkalinity consumption with a net positive effect on coral growth. While I certainly see the obvious reason why one might reach that idea, does the above suggest this correlation might be misplaced? Is it possible the increase in alk consumption is a result of processing the ammonia as stated above?

If so, for those of us that employ a one-part solution for supplementing alkalinity and calcium (i.e. all for reef or kalkwasser), would/could this increase in alk consumption throw off the "balanced formula" and exacerbate an imbalance of the two compounds? Likewise, I could see one potentially employing this to correct an existing imbalance as well. If a one-part dosing method produced too much alkalinity, this could be tuned to bring that down alleviating the requirement for supplemental alkalinity dosing.

That is only possible if nitrate is continually increasing. The consumption of ammonia does not consume alkalinity unless used to make nitrate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do the mono or di imply an increase in hazard or potential reactivity? A quick Google search shows, "monobasic acid has only one replaceable hydrogen atom, while a dibasic acid has two replaceable hydrogen atoms." I'm not sure what exactly to make of that but "replaceable hydrogen atom" sounds like a potential reactiveness. I might be wrong though (of course).

It just the ionic form: NaH2PO4, Na2HPO4, or Na3PO4. All result in the same phosphate forms after being added (which depend on tank pH). There are tiny differences in the pH and alk effects when added, but those will be undetectably small in most cases.