How much Aluminum will it leach? Let's guess

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Regarding permeation, I just read from the MarinePure website Q & A section that the media is still useful for biological filtration even if the media is totally encapsulated in coralline algae. Still, coralline algae would be thinner than a layer of concrete.

I am not a chemist, but I understand that pure aluminum has more toxicity than aluminum oxide. That documentary I inserted above has some good evidence that pure aluminum is a neurotoxin and can be toxic to other tissues in both mankind and animals. It is impossible that aluminum oxide can be as toxic because it is one of the most common substances in the earth's crust. I compare that to sodium chloride (salt) as being essential for our health yet chloride gas as being toxic. I wonder what sort of process or aluminum compounds MarinePure uses in making what they call "aluminosilicate ceramic." Still, some folks on this thread are showing increased aluminum levels per Triton testing after introducing MarinePure media.

I do not know the basis for what they claim (if any), but no matter, concrete will not be adequately permeable.

Pure aluminum may be more likely to dissolve and instantly become aluminum ions in solution, but I'm skeptical of this tox claim. The surface of aluminum is ALWAYS aluminum oxide except when freshly prepared in high vacuum (which I have done), and ANY aluminum in seawater is ALWAYS aluminum ion not aluminum metal. It reacts super fast with water and/or oxygen. The only reason an aluminum part does not go up in flames in water like sodium metal does is the quickly formed oxide layer protects the underlying aluminum metal from further oxidation.

For example, in your video they talked about acid rain leaching aluminum. That is aluminum ion, not aluminum metal.

 

[CenlaReefer]

I do not know the basis for what they claim (if any), but no matter, concrete will not be adequately permeable.

Pure aluminum may be more likely to dissolve and instantly become aluminum ions in solution, but I'm skeptical of this tox claim. The surface of aluminum is ALWAYS aluminum oxide except when freshly prepared in high vacuum (which I have done), and ANY aluminum in seawater is ALWAYS aluminum ion not aluminum metal. It reacts super fast with water and/or oxygen. The only reason an aluminum part does not go up in flames in water like sodium metal does is the quickly formed oxide layer protects the underlying aluminum metal from further oxidation.

For example, in your video they talked about acid rain leaching aluminum. That is aluminum ion, not aluminum metal.

This is helpful information. Regarding your article ( http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/7/chemistry ), I am still concerned that the Aluminum ions can be harmful (i.e. aluminum toxicity noted to be harmful to many creatures). Am I wrong? I am likely going to pass on the concrete coating endeavor.

Regarding aluminum extraction in plain water, I understand what you are saying. Regarding out personal health, perhaps cooking with pure aluminum can be more harmful because of the acidic level of particular foods such as tomato sauce. I know a friend that marinated meat with Italian dressing with vinegar in an aluminum pan overnight. The next morning, the marinade had eaten through and was dripping out of the bottom of the pan. Good things she did not eat those steaks!

Randy, thanks for watching that documentary. What did you think of it regarding the general health of people?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Aluminum ions can certainly be harmful, yes. I only watched part of it, but it is a valid concern.

One of the medications I co-invented years ago was a phosphate binder in people. Early on, aluminum salts were dosed to people for this reason but later were determined to be too toxic.

 

[Tori]

Since the people who had Triton test performed showed that there aluminum content stopped rising at some point, does anyone think it would be possible to cure the MP block? Maybe using something like Prime? This has been a great read by the way!

 

[jason2459]

Since the people who had Triton test performed showed that there aluminum content stopped rising at some point, does anyone think it would be possible to cure the MP block? Maybe using something like Prime? This has been a great read by the way!

I soaked one block with circulation for a month and I still saw a reaction with my fiji leather so may take much longer. I wouldn't think it's worth it other then an initial very good rinsing.

 

[bif24701]

I have used a Marinepure block for 8 months with success in a mixed SPS, LPS, and one BTA. Has anyone seen adverse affects to anything other than softies and leathers?

 

[DVR]

I wonder if seachem matrix has the same issue? I think it is pumice though... I'm using it in a frag tank for the majority of the biological capacity...

 

[pfoxgrover]

Would Sintered glass products like "EHEIM Substrat Pro" or "Sera Marin Siporax" be a safer alternative than these aluminosilicate products for simulating the effects of live rock for a tank with less live rock?
I understand it would require more Sintered glass to achieve the same effect as the aluminosilicate products but if there is no problem with leaching than it seems like an easy decision.
Am I missing something?

 

[jason2459]

Don't think you're missing anything. The compact size of these blocks is very convenient though and they are very efficient at housing bacteria.

Siporax could be a good alternative for those wanting to avoid the Al but I don't know what may leach from Siporax either.

 

[CodyRVA]

Would Sintered glass products like "EHEIM Substrat Pro" or "Sera Marin Siporax" be a safer alternative than these aluminosilicate products for simulating the effects of live rock for a tank with less live rock?
I understand it would require more Sintered glass to achieve the same effect as the aluminosilicate products but if there is no problem with leaching than it seems like an easy decision.
Am I missing something?

I use sintered glass and it works just as good IMO.

 

[Gary Wilkinson]

Just caught up with this most interesting thread Thanks @jason2459

Siporax as an alternative needs to be cleaned well before use my experience is Si levels jump considerably, what form this is ICP won't tell us just that its in the water
having changed nothing else my August 2015 ICP had o Si over the holidays I added 15 ltrs of Siporax un-washed to the sump, in January 2016 Si was 578.9 ug/L
I have since tested my RoDi water there is a trace


regarding TRITON and GFO absorbing AL

In the UK TRITON say alternate AL99 the TRITON Po4 Al based media with GFO, generally they recommend Rowa Phos or BioPhos 80

the GFO is said to keep Al from rising too high and the AL99 media stops Ba getting too high from the GFO
It is not recomended that media are used at the same time as this will reduce the binding of Phosphate

extract

*TRITON provide AL99 phosphate remover, this is an aluminum based “pellet” which is best used in a reactor. The AL99 should only have a slow flow passing over it and should not be “tumbled”. You may find with continued use that your AL levels start to rise on your ICP test, if this is the case then it is recommended to alternate AL99 with an alternative product, there are many other Phosphate removal products available each with their own pros and cons... "

from TRITON error correction sheet

Barium
RED too high 4x 15% weekly WC with PURE (TRITON SALT) Check PO4 media, use TRITON Al99
Ba YELLOW too high Check PO4 media, use TRITON Al99

 

[jason2459]

That's also interesting they say using both at the same time reduces the ability to absorb PO4? I wonder why.

 

[jason2459]

FYI

Looks and feels and crumbles on the edges just like the Marine Pure blocks.

Bio plate (not in sump yet)

Marinepure block

 

[Gary Wilkinson]

That's also interesting they say using both at the same time reduces the ability to absorb PO4? I wonder why.

my understanding is if the Al99 media is binding Ba it's not binding Phosphate
if the GFO is binding Al it's not binding Phosphate

this was inferred but not said what I spoke with Ehsan

 

[jason2459]

my understanding is if the Al99 media is binding Ba it's not binding Phosphate
if the GFO is binding Al it's not binding Phosphate

this was inferred but not said what I spoke with Ehsan

Thanks. I would think theres enough Ba in the tank water regardless if they are used together to interfere with PO4 binding if that's a process in the first place?

@Randy Holmes-Farley any input on the opposite reaction of Al based PO4 binding media on absorbing Ba as well? I know there's skepticism on the GFO being able to bind an appreciable amount of Al.

 

[jason2459]

I did put that plate in tonight. I had it soaking and swishing and rinsing the past few days.

FYI it floats until fully soaked through. The block was not like that. It soaked up the water and sank pretty quickly.

And my Fiji Leather hates it when I add these things.

And floating again

 

[OGFrenchHorn]

Interesting. Tagging along.

 

[Gary Wilkinson]

Thanks. I would think theres enough Ba in the tank water regardless if they are used together to interfere with PO4 binding if that's a process in the first place?

@Randy Holmes-Farley any input on the opposite reaction of Al based PO4 binding media on absorbing Ba as well? I know there's skepticism on the GFO being able to bind an appreciable amount of Al.

I found by using ICP some brands of GFO put a considerable amount of Ba in the water, Rowa Phos and BioPhos80 were very good in this regard, its quite scary what we are learning about the things we used to take for granted prior to ICP

The worst was a very well known aquatics companies product Ba hit 65.24 ug/L after one use, normally I expect around 10 ug/L
I used AL99 to bind the Ba and it did come down what Ehsan from Triton is saying in my experience is correct,
I have no idea of the binding capacity of the media for Ba Al Si etc only that they do reduce, of course no two GFO's are the same either.

Whilst Ba of 65.24 ug/L probably isn't a major issue, (Yellow warning from TRITON) if I had continued to use this GFO brand it could have continued to climb

I am a big fan of ICP testing every 3 or 4 months it helps isolate potential issues before there is a major issue, for less than the cost of a coral.

So far it helped me find Sn in a new build (float glass is made on tin) and remove it with Activated Carbon SPS had poor colour and PE


Vanadium and Chromium in the water, again affecting SPS some corals were unhappy others were just fine, this was a screw in a Stainless Steel Clip, the clip wasn't corroding the screw had almost vanished, without the test I wouldn't have known why some corals were struggling ( for this issue, I did big water changes )

 

[jason2459]

I agree the ICP-OES testing is useful and Triton does have it at a good price point to be able to do periodic testing with. I plan on a couple times a year.

However, I put little trust on the results of the trace elements with such testing. I think, and could be wrong, that if done often they could be a good indicator of something is there and possible trends. I would not rely on the numbers being pricise or accurate. It seems some trace elements are harder then others to test for with their methods.

 

[Gary Wilkinson]

I agree the ICP-OES testing is useful and Triton does have it at a good price point to be able to do periodic testing with. I plan on a couple times a year.

However, I put little trust on the results of the trace elements with such testing. I think, and could be wrong, that if done often they could be a good indicator of something is there and possible trends. I would not rely on the numbers being pricise or accurate. It seems some trace elements are harder then others to test for with their methods.

there has been a lot of negativity about the accuracy, some of the detractors have now purchased there own ICP machines (-)

here is the LOD expectation from the LAB

http://www.triton-lab.de/fileadmin/user_upload/triton-lab/TRITON_LOD.pdf


as I understand it, you need three certified samples one at the lowest concentration you are interested in one at the highest concentration and one in between, the LOD is the limit of detection what the device has been calibrated properly