Ich on my Purple tangs.

[hermesfansf]

here's my 2 cents and what puzzles me about Ich. Ok say you have your tank running for 8 weeks and you QT all your fish before adding them. If Ich is so easy for tangs to get wont it just get it again and again and again to me it's like it never ends.


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To be honest I don't really like tang, as they produce too much of waste. however, the only tang that I keep is a black tang. When I got him he was only 2 inches, I QT him for 6 weeks, then I released him into my 24 gallon nano tank for observation before releasing him into my 75 gallon. After being 3 months in 24 gallons tank, he developed ICH. I suspected it was due to the new additional of LPS, as he loved to clean up the algae. I immediately QT and treated him win copper again. I finally put him into my 75 gallon tank where he has gone through 2 major tank crash (temp < 70) however, the ICH did not strike back. Therefore I am rather confident to say that the black tang is ICH free. I also keep a neon goby that constantly cleaning the black tang, so I guess that also helps controlling parasite in the tank.

I am about to get Achilles tang for my 400g tank, I will definitely QT and treat them with cupramine, and also put them in my 75 for observation before releasing them into the bigger tank. If they don't make it in QT, then I will only lose 2 tangs. However, if i don't QT them, i might lose the entire tank. I think the risk is rather too huge to take....

 

[KoleTang]

Heres my problem with Jedi's opinion on ich treatment. Put in a simple If/Then formula for your convenience.

If ich is always in the system, then the fish are not always catching it.
If the fish are not always catching it, then they must be doing something to protect themselves.
If the fish can protect themselves from ich, then there is no reason to quarantine all the fish for 8 weeks.

So, If ich is always in the system, then there is no reason to quarantine all the fish for 8 weeks (after there is an ich breakout)

Since fish can somehow not catch ich there must be some way to boost that ability. What happens when you get super stressed and over work yourself? You most likely will get sick! The reason is stress is, linked to the quality of your immune system. So one way to help your fish is to relieve them of stress.

There must be other ways to help them. Giving them a lot of nutrients and vitamins will boost their immune system. People say garlic does nothing. This is not true. Garlic is an antioxidant, anti-fungal, anti-viral, and anti-biotic. Garlic has Vitamin C, B6, Selenium, Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, and manganese. These things will help your fish's immune system. Now it is true that garlic is not some magical thing that kills diseases, but it is a weopon for you fish's immune system.

There are many other vitamins and nutrients you can give your fish other than garlic. To a fish food = happy. So by feeding them you are helping with stress and helping with nutrients, which both help the immune system.

These things should be given to your fish in the first place and not when just sick. This will help them from catching anything. If your fish are catching diseases, then there is obviously something wrong with how your fish are feeling.

I am not saying this is a surefire cure all remedy. But it will help your fish to have the upper hand especially with something less serious like ich.

 

[jedimasterben]

If ich is always in the system, then the fish are not always catching it.

If ich is in the system, all fish are infected by it whether or not they show signs, and will continue to do so for up to a year. The parasite lives in small numbers hidden deep in the gills of the fish. They irritate the fish, but are in such small numbers that it does not become a problem unless the fish becomes stressed and its immune system falters.

Ich can be eradicated from any tank. As long as all fish have been treated for it and the tank has been fallow for 72 days with ZERO additions (livestock, corals, inverts, rocks, macros, etc), the fish cannot host ich as there is none in the system, and ich cannot form where there is none already.

If the fish have not been treated and the tank not been fallow, as long as there are no new additions to the tank as defined above, after a years time or so, the system will be ich free - something like the ich reproduces so much that it just cannot sustain itself anymore and dies out. The system is then ich free and the fish will not 'catch' it again.

If the fish are not always catching it, then they must be doing something to protect themselves.

They aren't 'catching' it, they have 'caught' it and are keeping it alive in their gills.

If the fish can protect themselves from ich, then there is no reason to quarantine all the fish for 8 weeks.

There is reason to quarantine all fish. Ich cannot survive without a host, this is an absolute.

So, If ich is always in the system, then there is no reason to quarantine all the fish for 8 weeks (after there is an ich breakout)

What in the, I don't even.

Since fish can somehow not catch ich there must be some way to boost that ability. What happens when you get super stressed and over work yourself? You most likely will get sick! The reason is stress is, linked to the quality of your immune system. So one way to help your fish is to relieve them of stress.

There must be other ways to help them. Giving them a lot of nutrients and vitamins will boost their immune system. People say garlic does nothing. This is not true. Garlic is an antioxidant, anti-fungal, anti-viral, and anti-biotic. Garlic has Vitamin C, B6, Selenium, Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, and manganese. These things will help your fish's immune system. Now it is true that garlic is not some magical thing that kills diseases, but it is a weopon for you fish's immune system.

There is no proof of that. Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

There are many other vitamins and nutrients you can give your fish other than garlic. To a fish food = happy. So by feeding them you are helping with stress and helping with nutrients, which both help the immune system.

All will be provided from a varied diet, especially if live foods are provided.

These things should be given to your fish in the first place and not when just sick. This will help them from catching anything. If your fish are catching diseases, then there is obviously something wrong with how your fish are feeling.

One thing that feeding lots of garlic to your fish does is leading to liver failure. Sounds healthy. Reef Central whats your views on garlic? - Reef Central Online Community

I am not saying this is a surefire cure all remedy. But it will help your fish to have the upper hand especially with something less serious like ich.

Good, cause your nose might have grown a bit if you did.

 

[KoleTang]

If ich is in the system, all fish are infected by it whether or not they show signs, and will continue to do so for up to a year. The parasite lives in small numbers hidden deep in the gills of the fish. They irritate the fish, but are in such small numbers that it does not become a problem unless the fish becomes stressed and its immune system falters.

Ich can be eradicated from any tank. As long as all fish have been treated for it and the tank has been fallow for 72 days with ZERO additions (livestock, corals, inverts, rocks, macros, etc), the fish cannot host ich as there is none in the system, and ich cannot form where there is none already.

If the fish have not been treated and the tank not been fallow, as long as there are no new additions to the tank as defined above, after a years time or so, the system will be ich free - something like the ich reproduces so much that it just cannot sustain itself anymore and dies out. The system is then ich free and the fish will not 'catch' it again.


We established that ich can come in on anything. So when you put anything new into the tank that has not been treated for ich (coral, snails, inverts, rock, equipment, cross contaminate anything) you are introducing ich. No-one has the time or effort to quarantine snails.

OK, You have me convinced that the fish has small parts of ich on it during times of its life cycle. It would make no sense for it somehow to magically stay alive without its host fish. Now who do you know that has not added ANYTHING to their tank in a year? Most everyone adds things to their tank like snails and corals without treating for ich. So it is possible, but also improbable to have a tank free of ich.

Could you explain how ich somehow dies off after a year? Is it not "fully" infecting the fish so it does not get enough of whatever it needs to live?

If 99% of the reefing community do not QT everything that goes in their tank and add multiple things a year, then it clearly is connected to immune system. These fish are just fine how they are, why be so concerned about ich then?

Are you saying that once the white spots appear it has gone too far? I have had fish get the white spots and the fish kicks the parasite and life goes back to how it was. I have heard the same from many reefers. Why then, do you think that your suggested treatment must take place for a fish that has white spots?

There is reason to quarantine all fish. Ich cannot survive without a host, this is an absolute.

So what do you suggest happens after your QT period? Do you never add anything to your tank again?

What in the, I don't even.

That made me LOL. Sorry, I got a bit carried away with the structure of logic. (you usually wrap up an if/then with a conclusion taken from the first and last statements. )

There is no proof of that. Garlic: What has been Studied Versus What has been Claimed by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

Proof of what? It is a given that garlic has the properties and contains the ingredients that I listed. The garlic has the vitamins, the fish eats it, the fish gets the vitamins, the vitamins help the fish's immune system. What else is there to debate?

All will be provided from a varied diet, especially if live foods are provided.

Yes, and they can benefit even more from supplements. Why not go above and beyond to make your fish healthy?

One thing that feeding lots of garlic to your fish does is leading to liver failure. Sounds healthy. Reef Central whats your views on garlic? - Reef Central Online Community

The first link is long gone. The second is a study done on a freshwater catfish. Catfish are not even related to the fish we are discussing and who knows how a marine fish would react to the same test.

The post goes on to say "When I first started in the hobby I had 2 fish come down with severe ich and I didn't feed garlic and the ich went away. Since then I've never fed garlic and never had ich either. It's well documented that fish can recover from ich and develop immunity with no treatment at all. In the absence of controlled tests showing that orally administered garlic is effective, there's no way to attribute the effects to garlic rather than just the natural ability of the fish to fight the parasite."

I don't have anything to back up garlic and you have no evidence of it being detrimental. I know that many people feed garlic to their fish and the fish are fine.

Garlic is not the only vitamin that is ok to use on fish. There are plenty of other supplements out there. So if you don't like garlic, then don't use it. I will continue to use garlic to supplement my fish's food.

Good, cause your nose might have grown a bit if you did.

 

[returnofsid]

WOW, the Ich Myths continue. Please read this sticky, which relates MOST of the myths regarding Marine Ich, and also provides evidence to refute the myths. This link also offers proven methods of irradicating Ich from any reef tank.

Garlic is more likely to kill your fish than cure Ich
No, not all tanks have Ich

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-discussion/56989-ich-discussion-treatment-options.html

 

[KoleTang]

WOW, the Ich Myths continue. Please read this sticky, which relates MOST of the myths regarding Marine Ich, and also provides evidence to refute the myths. This link also offers proven methods of irradicating Ich from any reef tank.

Garlic is more likely to kill your fish than cure Ich
No, not all tanks have Ich

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-discussion/56989-ich-discussion-treatment-options.html

Thanks for the link.

Just for clarity, I did not say all tanks have ich. I said it is improbable to have a tank without ich.

 

[KoleTang]

I'd still like to hear what you have to say Jedi. When you have a chance please post.

 

[jedimasterben]

OK, You have me convinced that the fish has small parts of ich on it during times of its life cycle. It would make no sense for it somehow to magically stay alive without its host fish. Now who do you know that has not added ANYTHING to their tank in a year? Most everyone adds things to their tank like snails and corals without treating for ich. So it is possible, but also improbable to have a tank free of ich.

Correct. Possible, but who's not gonna have any fun and add more stuff.

Could you explain how ich somehow dies off after a year? Is it not "fully" infecting the fish so it does not get enough of whatever it needs to live?

I have absolutely no idea. I'm trying to find the article I read (I thought it was from Reefkeeping.com but I may be wrong about that) about it.

If 99% of the reefing community do not QT everything that goes in their tank and add multiple things a year, then it clearly is connected to immune system. These fish are just fine how they are, why be so concerned about ich then?

I think it's less immune system and more tolerance and a healthy slime coat. Stressed fish have little slime coat and the parasite is allowed to attach to the body, hence the white spots.

Are you saying that once the white spots appear it has gone too far? I have had fish get the white spots and the fish kicks the parasite and life goes back to how it was. I have heard the same from many reefers. Why then, do you think that your suggested treatment must take place for a fish that has white spots?

In a lot of cases, yes. By that point, the fish can't keep up and the parasite takes over (Ich is a crappy parasite, ya know? Most good parasites don't harm the host too much to keep them alive so they can keep preying on them. Seems counterintuitive to be able to kill your host!). If the fish are conditioned and the aquarist has good husbandry, they have a higher chance of fighting it off, but again, by the time the spots are there, the fish is weaker than before and is easily overtaken by more parasites.

And just because the white spots are gone does not mean they beat the parasite - it has simply taken back to infecting the gills, which are not protected by the slime coat and are easily accessible.

So what do you suggest happens after your QT period? Do you never add anything to your tank again?

What's the fun in that?

Just saying that it is 100% possible to have a tank that is not carrying ich.

That made me LOL. Sorry, I got a bit carried away with the structure of logic. (you usually wrap up an if/then with a conclusion taken from the first and last statements. )

LOL

Proof of what? It is a given that garlic has the properties and contains the ingredients that I listed. The garlic has the vitamins, the fish eats it, the fish gets the vitamins, the vitamins help the fish's immune system. What else is there to debate?

Whether or not it actually helps, and that is what that article covers. Manufacturers have claimed for a very, very long time that garlic has all these benefits, including outright curing Crypto outbreaks, which it simply cannot do, ever. 100% impossible.

Yes, and they can benefit even more from supplements. Why not go above and beyond to make your fish healthy?

Only so much can be done. A varied diet will provide nearly and up to 100% of what the fish needs, anything else would possibly be wasted and passed through, as the fish would not need it at that time.

The first link is long gone. The second is a study done on a freshwater catfish. Catfish are not even related to the fish we are discussing and who knows how a marine fish would react to the same test.

The post goes on to say "When I first started in the hobby I had 2 fish come down with severe ich and I didn't feed garlic and the ich went away. Since then I've never fed garlic and never had ich either. It's well documented that fish can recover from ich and develop immunity with no treatment at all. In the absence of controlled tests showing that orally administered garlic is effective, there's no way to attribute the effects to garlic rather than just the natural ability of the fish to fight the parasite."

I don't have anything to back up garlic and you have no evidence of it being detrimental. I know that many people feed garlic to their fish and the fish are fine.

The first link I can't find a copy of, even Archive.org doesn't have it. :/

That wasn't the important post.

Clearly there is evidence that in high doses garlic can damage the liver of fishes. However, I don't know of any studies that looked at the histopathology of using smaller doses, so there's really no way to say what, if any, dose is safe.

There haven't been any studies done showing that orally administered garlic does anything to fight off protozoans in fish. All we have to go on is anecdotal evidence from people saying that they fed garlic and the ich went away in 3 days or that they've fed garlic and they've never had ich. The trouble with that is that people who don't treat with garlic or treat with "cures" that are known to be ineffective can say the same thing. When I first started in the hobby I had 2 fish come down with severe ich and I didn't feed garlic and the ich went away. Since then I've never fed garlic and never had ich either. It's well documented that fish can recover from ich and develop immunity with no treatment at all. In the absence of controlled tests showing that orally administered garlic is effective, there's no way to attribute the effects to garlic rather than just the natural ability of the fish to fight the parasite.

Also, there's evidence that although garlic may induce fish to eat more, it induces lots of metabolic changes that cause the fish to use the food less efficiently. So again, there shouldn't be an assumption that because the fish eat more with garlic, they're healthier.

While I don't think there is enough evidence to say one way or the other whether feeding garlic is directly harmful to fish, I do think it can be dangerous in the sense that people choose to forgo proven treatments in favor of garlic which is untested. Ich is afterall a life-threatening disease.

That's more along the lines of what I was getting at, you'll fine people saying that anything they did 'cured' ich. I'm in the camp that garlic should not be a regular addition to a fish's food, and should only be used as an appetite stimulant in training a picky fish, or when trying new foods to get the fish to recognize it as such.

 

[KoleTang]

So what do you suggest to do to keep ich out of a system? What do you personally do to prevent ich? Do your fish have the ich infection in their gills?

That wasn't the important post.

For some reason whenever I click on the link it zips down to that post. I thought that was what you were trying to point out.

 

[Diesel]

Everybody thanks for great info.

 

[jedimasterben]

So what do you suggest to do to keep ich out of a system?

All fish are treated with Cupramine for two weeks during part of their quarantine.

What do you personally do to prevent ich? Do your fish have the ich infection in their gills?

See above. After treatment, they do not. If I did not treat, they would.

 

[KoleTang]

All fish are treated with Cupramine for two weeks during part of their quarantine.


See above. After treatment, they do not. If I did not treat, they would.

Sorry I did not specify enough. I meant what do you do to prevent ich coming in on corals, snails, rock, etc.?

 

[iiluisii]

All my tangs have had ich and they all were visible and they got rid of it. But I feed a lot of food so for me if I see signs of ich I just feed them more. Also try feeding some new life spectrum the one that has garlic

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[Diesel]

Hi, Just a update.
I used some metronitozole, garlic extreme and some focus, mixed all in the food.
Fed them for at least four times small amounts and Ich is gone of the P tangs.
Now I know the Ich will be still in the tank but as of now keeping fish happy, healthy and well fed I should be fine.
This worked for me and I'm positive other methods are working too.
I'll saved all the info that you guys gave me on here.
Thanks a bunch and have a Ich free Merry Christmas.

 

[iiluisii]

Hi, Just a update.
I used some metronitozole, garlic extreme and some focus, mixed all in the food.
Fed them for at least four times small amounts and Ich is gone of the P tangs.
Now I know the Ich will be still in the tank but as of now keeping fish happy, healthy and well fed I should be fine.
This worked for me and I'm positive other methods are working too.
I'll saved all the info that you guys gave me on here.
Thanks a bunch and have a Ich free Merry Christmas.

Yea man thats how im fighting it I just keep them well fed

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