Ich or velvet?

[vetteguy53081]

Do peroxide salts with UV behave similar to hydrogen peroxide with UV where it releases free radicals which can oxidize contaminants yet very short lived. I'm currently researching sodium percarbonate as a form of creating my own hydrogen peroxide. Curious if that's what's in Poly Lab Medic?

I've considered your suggestion of vacuuming the gravel but came to the conclusion it would be more efficient to blow it with a powerhead and get it in suspension hoping the main filtration can process it. Looking into flocculants to bind the ich. No clue if latter works but might at a minimum remove any detritus hosting ich or other pathogens. Easier it is the more likely I'll do it concept.

Going to experiment with running UV post filtration so that it's more effective at treating what passes through it and dosing HP directly into the in-fluent of that filtration thereby maximizing the effectiveness of the UV to attack various contaminants beyond pathogens. Advanced Oxidation Process and been used in waste water treatment yet seems very plausible in our application. Key is disturbing the substrate and getting it's contents processed. Granted as you mentioned, might not be effective in this scenario due to advancement of infection.

BTW, didn't realize you mention lowering of salinity and yes that makes sense. Much easier to find a temporary home for unattached corals yet still an issue if it comes with rocks. Just seeking options for both the OP although mostly for myself. Trying to exhaust all knowledge so I get this right the first time although I'm sure something new will not have been thought of. Trying to minimize those.

With lowering to 1.009 known as Hyposalinity, it allows you to set corals back in after the 30-40 days and placing corals back in due to no exposure to copper, However certain fish get very stressed in Hypo and do not do well.

 

[GARRIGA]

It is the safest of copper treatments known as chelated form. Same applies to copperpower
Ionic version - cupramine is more potent

But aren’t both forms still toxic? Is copper safe just safe because of low dosages. Ocean has copper. Its presence along isn’t the concern.

 

[GARRIGA]

With lowering to 1.009 known as Hyposalinity, it allows you to set corals back in after the 30-40 days and placing corals back in due to no exposure to copper, However certain fish get very stressed in Hypo and do not do well.

I’m aware of that but not everyone can move entire rocks where coral have attached. That’s my concern voiced with lower salinity.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do peroxide salts with UV behave similar to hydrogen peroxide with UV where it releases free radicals which can oxidize contaminants yet very short lived. I'm currently researching sodium percarbonate as a form of creating my own hydrogen peroxide. Curious if that's what's in Poly Lab Medic?

I've considered your suggestion of vacuuming the gravel but came to the conclusion it would be more efficient to blow it with a powerhead and get it in suspension hoping the main filtration can process it. Looking into flocculants to bind the ich. No clue if latter works but might at a minimum remove any detritus hosting ich or other pathogens. Easier it is the more likely I'll do it concept.

Going to experiment with running UV post filtration so that it's more effective at treating what passes through it and dosing HP directly into the in-fluent of that filtration thereby maximizing the effectiveness of the UV to attack various contaminants beyond pathogens. Advanced Oxidation Process and been used in waste water treatment yet seems very plausible in our application. Key is disturbing the substrate and getting it's contents processed. Granted as you mentioned, might not be effective in this scenario due to advancement of infection.

BTW, didn't realize you mention lowering of salinity and yes that makes sense. Much easier to find a temporary home for unattached corals yet still an issue if it comes with rocks. Just seeking options for both the OP although mostly for myself. Trying to exhaust all knowledge so I get this right the first time although I'm sure something new will not have been thought of. Trying to minimize those.

The reaction of UV and peroxides is complex, and depends on the relative levels of both. Peroxide is broken down by UV C, but I can't say if the free radicals that are produced are of any benefit, or are they just a "flash in the pan" and quickly get burnt out?

With H2O2 so inexpensive, I never thought about trying to produce it through reactions. I will tell you one thing - 3% peroxide is fairly stable and contains no additives. Some aquarists opt for higher concentration solutions to make its use more cost effective. You need to beware - not only are these dangerous to handle, most high concentration peroxides use stabilizers such as tin. I found that Absopure sells bulk 7% peroxide that has no stabilizers in it.

I took some time this morning and created a "ich management" sticky thread:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’m aware of that but not everyone can move entire rocks where coral have attached. That’s my concern voiced with lower salinity.

I had to do this with more than rocks (see pics below). Its your call, but short cuts rarely work and time is of essence for treatment. I sure will not add a bunch of peroxide in with my corals and risk losing both fish and coral and find it did not work due to the late stage.
You mentioned consideration of hypo and removing rock and coral - It amounts to the same labor and time.

 

[Lavey29]

Yes I did have a Redsea 350 prior to the 525 that tank is no longer w me, the 525 is in another room which is doing amazing all the fish beat ich and I haven’t added none to that tank, now explain based on my previous post how is a reefer 350- 525 to small for a tang / fox face? This post Specifically was to ID if the fishes have ich or velvet, not to get criticized by someone who clearly is clue less about the situation but rather give their pointless opinion based on what they assume. People like your self is the reason why myself and a lot of my local guys think twice on posting a thread for help on reef2reef, l
Also about the pic of the tank, what’s the point of that if it’s not the reason for the post.

Post a few full tank pics of your big tank then

525 is 4 feet wide with maybe 65g of water once you put rocks in. This would accommodate a small tang like tomini or bristletooth but not all those fish shown in your pictures.

So all 3 tanks that you have or have had the past year got visible ich on your fish. Do you wonder why? Research stress events for fish resulting in ich. Big fish in undersize tank is a stress event for fish and you keep seeing the results don't you?

Apparently you know everything about reefing so I'm sure your new ich problem will work out fine.

 

[vetteguy53081]

But aren’t both forms still toxic? Is copper safe just safe because of low dosages. Ocean has copper. Its presence along isn’t the concern.

Anything you add is toxic and of risk. Again chelated form is safer and hundreds use coppersafe with positive results

 

[GARRIGA]

The reaction of UV and peroxides is complex, and depends on the relative levels of both. Peroxide is broken down by UV C, but I can't say if the free radicals that are produced are of any benefit, or are they just a "flash in the pan" and quickly get burnt out?

With H2O2 so inexpensive, I never thought about trying to produce it through reactions. I will tell you one thing - 3% peroxide is fairly stable and contains no additives. Some aquarists opt for higher concentration solutions to make its use more cost effective. You need to beware - not only are these dangerous to handle, most high concentration peroxides use stabilizers such as tin. I found that Absopure sells bulk 7% peroxide that has no stabilizers in it.

I took some time this morning and created a "ich management" sticky thread:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Been looking at Lab Alley as they can ship 15% food grade without incurring hazardous waste surge charges and seeking higher % to reduce how much to administer to obtain the same ppm for tank or dip treatments.

As for UV, I’m going to test how much can be added while still getting a zero reading post UV. Theory being the larger the dosage the more effective it would be resolving that captured by filtration then literally neutralized by UV.

Currently experimenting with store bought 3%. Aware of stabilizers but no clue how concerning that is although considerably cheaper than food grade and why I’m seeking alternatives such as sodium percarbonate since it’s just soda ash and hydrogen peroxide but not sure how pure. Some claim 100% which seems dubious.

Have seen where HP being used to treat ich but not aware of how effective and why I fidget suggest it but based on my own usage. Does seem to clarify water as good or better than carbon. Have removed latter.

Perhaps administering HP into the display and maintained at certain PPM then later neutralized with UV should dosage had exceeded that tank inhabitants would tolerate. Know already GHA reacts quickly to it and was able to Reno are it from Pom Pom macroalgae although might have administered longer the. Needed and it did stress out. Will conduct further tests on better exposure including just the tips. I’m also going to increase dosage to see if I can finally eradicate GHA. No corals therefore perhaps another can provide their experience on what dosages theirs tolerated. I know this application relatively new and we are still learning.

I’ll checkout your source to see if cheaper than lab alley.

BTW, are you stating store bought HP 3% doesn’t contain dangerous stabilizers? It’s considerably cheaper than food grade and wasn’t concerned using it further than my test tank.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Been looking at Lab Alley as they can ship 15% food grade without incurring hazardous waste surge charges and seeking higher % to reduce how much to administer to obtain the same ppm for tank or dip treatments.

As for UV, I’m going to test how much can be added while still getting a zero reading post UV. Theory being the larger the dosage the more effective it would be resolving that captured by filtration then literally neutralized by UV.

Currently experimenting with store bought 3%. Aware of stabilizers but no clue how concerning that is although considerably cheaper than food grade and why I’m seeking alternatives such as sodium percarbonate since it’s just soda ash and hydrogen peroxide but not sure how pure. Some claim 100% which seems dubious.

Have seen where HP being used to treat ich but not aware of how effective and why I fidget suggest it but based on my own usage. Does seem to clarify water as good or better than carbon. Have removed latter.

Perhaps administering HP into the display and maintained at certain PPM then later neutralized with UV should dosage had exceeded that tank inhabitants would tolerate. Know already GHA reacts quickly to it and was able to Reno are it from Pom Pom macroalgae although might have administered longer the. Needed and it did stress out. Will conduct further tests on better exposure including just the tips. I’m also going to increase dosage to see if I can finally eradicate GHA. No corals therefore perhaps another can provide their experience on what dosages theirs tolerated. I know this application relatively new and we are still learning.

I’ll checkout your source to see if cheaper than lab alley.

BTW, are you stating store bought HP 3% doesn’t contain dangerous stabilizers? It’s considerably cheaper than food grade and wasn’t concerned using it further than my test tank.

3% does not but will break down under UV sterilization

 

[GARRIGA]

3% does not but will break down under UV sterilization

3% does not... what?

Contain stabilizers of concern? Would rather just order a case at a time from Amazon which is considerably cheaper then food grade. From what I can gather. Because it's marketed as topical the manufacturer's aren't required by the FDA to list all ingredients and why food grade what is recommended for the current Minute Cure rage. I've also seen where hydroponics and aquaponics farmers talk about not using the 3% USP specifically because of unknown stabilizers. Same with those prescribing HP to cleanse fruits. Always food grade and never based on percentage. I think regardless of percentage, it's going to decompose equally the same and especially once opened and/or exposed to light. I'm being stickler because adding 3% on the hopes it's just HP can have later consequences depending on stabilizers used and how they build up or decompose. Let me go find a video I had watched to send the point home because should this become an actual treatment best we all know all the facts. Last I'm adding are unknowns.

 

[vetteguy53081]

3% does not... what?

Contain stabilizers of concern? Would rather just order a case at a time from Amazon which is considerably cheaper then food grade. From what I can gather. Because it's marketed as topical the manufacturer's aren't required by the FDA to list all ingredients and why food grade what is recommended for the current Minute Cure rage. I've also seen where hydroponics and aquaponics farmers talk about not using the 3% USP specifically because of unknown stabilizers. Same with those prescribing HP to cleanse fruits. Always food grade and never based on percentage. I think regardless of percentage, it's going to decompose equally the same and especially once opened and/or exposed to light. I'm being stickler because adding 3% on the hopes it's just HP can have later consequences depending on stabilizers used and how they build up or decompose. Let me go find a video I had watched to send the point home because should this become an actual treatment best we all know all the facts. Last I'm adding are unknowns.

Does not have stabilizers

 

[GARRIGA]

Here's one source although not saying it's valid because they are after all selling food grade.

What’s the Difference Between Food Grade and Non-Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide?​

When we talk about our hydrogen peroxide being food grade, we are referring to the compound of the hydrogen peroxide itself. Most commercially available hydrogen peroxide contains stabilizers to increase the shelf life and effectiveness of the product. This means that the hydrogen peroxide doesn’t lose its strength as fast when you open the bottle.





Because hydrogen peroxide starts to break down into water and oxygen once it’s exposed to air, most companies add other chemical ingredients to extend the shelf life. However, once these other chemicals are added, the hydrogen peroxide is no longer considered food grade. Common stabilizers include:

• Colloidal stannate
• Sodium pyrophosphate
• Organophosphates
• Nitrate
• Phosphoric acid
• Colloidal silicate
• Sodium citrate

Source:

What’s the Difference Between Food Grade and Non-Food Grade Hydrogen P

What’s the difference between food grade and non food grade hydrogen peroxide? Have you ever wondered what the difference is between the hydrogen peroxide you see at the drugstore and the hydrogen peroxide we use in our products? You’re not alone.

homageco.com

 

[GARRIGA]

Does not have stabilizers

That's not what I'm finding. Where exactly did you get this conclusion and are you speaking of any one item or just in general as to store bought 3% USP in the brown bottles?

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah honestly brother when I ran it ich management I honestly had no problem at all for over a year, what caused the problem was the gold rim I should’ve just locked the aquarium and not introduced no further fish I have over 12 fishs in here I don’t have space to QT them and leave the dank fallow @ why I decided to run a ich management tank, I just need to know if it’s velvet or now

Thank you

What is your protocol for ich managemen?

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

I see you got a lot of time, good thing because I do as well. Your asking me to post a picture of my tank for what I don’t know since the topic of this thread isn’t to show off the tank it’s to ID the fishes problem, but if you give me a solid reason then maybe I’ll post a picture just to fulfill your desire. A Redsea reefer 525 DT is a 112 gallon system it’s a complete great all around size for the tangs that I have in there at the moment also is 60” which if you didn’t know its 5ft, not “4 feet wide” here you go again with “assuming”. You mentioned all three of my tanks if you can read correctly I stated “I did have a 350” did is a past tense, which leads me with how many now 2 because 3-1: 2 right? I don’t wonder why my fish “At the time had visible ich” because I know the ich didn’t come from the stress of an undersize tank because it’s clearly not undersized. The ich came from a dominator alpha PT the was showing territorial and picking on new fish which is completely normal when you introduce 1 tang to another before you come w your bs comments yes I would isolate box the tang and add mirror etc that can only do so much, eventually all the ICH was NOT VISIBLE they all overcame the ich and then is called a “ich management reef” which at the time and right now I am completely aware and accept the fact, now with my 1000 also another “ich management reef” all the fishes prior to this had caught ich again due to territorial eventually all fish in the 1000 also beat the ich and was none visible, then I saw a beautiful gold rim which I bought QTed!!!! Knowing those fishes are ich magnets I went ahead, and qted him after I qt him I threw him in again my PT from my 1000 bullied him and here we are. So I was wondering if it was ich or velvet and that’s the moto of this thread again.

I won’t consider myself knowing everything like you stated but I do know a ich management tank is fine w me. Idk what you do for living but I can tell you, you would be one heck of a FWC officer

Post a few full tank pics of your big tank then

525 is 4 feet wide with maybe 65g of water once you put rocks in. This would accommodate a small tang like tomini or bristletooth but not all those fish shown in your pictures.

So all 3 tanks that you have or have had the past year got visible ich on your fish. Do you wonder why? Research stress events for fish resulting in ich. Big fish in undersize tank is a stress event for fish and you keep seeing the results don't you?

Apparently you know everything about reefing so I'm sure your new ich problem will work out fine.

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

What is your protocol for ich managemen?

My protocol is exactly what has gaven me results now not saying it’ll work a million times but it definitely has worked on both tanks. Crank that UV and FEED FEED FEED I get raw shrimp grind it throw some brine in it to mix with vita-chem feed that two times a day auto feeder pellets 2 times a day and nori two times a day they eat it all up, in about a month I’ll get back to you and see if they managed to over come the ich,

 

[GARRIGA]

Crank that UV and FEED FEED FEED I get raw shrimp grind it throw some brine in it to mix with vita-chem feed that two times a day auto feeder pellets 2 times a day and nori two times a day they eat it all up...

Big believer in nutrition assisted immunity. Been doing that with my boa constrictors past 30 plus years. Kept warm and well fed and they fight off most ailments. Hit them with antibiotics or other medications to solve the problem and some never fully recover because they are constantly getting sick. As if their immune system never got fixed. As a kid I played in dirt and no clue of anti bacterial soap. Natural immunity, within reason. Sometimes no choice but getting doped with meds yet have always been of the mindset that was of last resort.

Ich management makes more sense to me each day knowing I'm likely not going to completely eradicated everything even with strict QT. I'm human and often inpatient. Plus fish can be jerks to new kids.

 

[Alex_hairymoney]

Big believer in nutrition assisted immunity. Been doing that with my boa constrictors past 30 plus years. Kept warm and well fed and they fight off most ailments. Hit them with antibiotics or other medications to solve the problem and some never fully recover because they are constantly getting sick. As if their immune system never got fixed. As a kid I played in dirt and no clue of anti bacterial soap. Natural immunity, within reason. Sometimes no choice but getting doped with meds yet have always been of the mindset that was of last resort.

Ich management makes more sense to me each day knowing I'm likely not going to completely eradicated everything even with strict QT. I'm human and often inpatient. Plus fish can be jerks to new kids.

100% spot on !! Send me the antibiotic you run

 

[GARRIGA]

100% spot on !! Send me the antibiotic you run

For Boas?

 

[MnFish1]

My protocol is exactly what has gaven me results now not saying it’ll work a million times but it definitely has worked on both tanks. Crank that UV and FEED FEED FEED I get raw shrimp grind it throw some brine in it to mix with vita-chem feed that two times a day auto feeder pellets 2 times a day and nori two times a day they eat it all up, in about a month I’ll get back to you and see if they managed to over come the ich,

Best wishes