ichish looking clowns. Can anyone ID this illness (pic).
- Thread starter dangros
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All corals/inverts (including nems) can remain the DT during the 72 day fallow period. It's only the fish you need to get out.
Does your dragonet eat anything other than pods? If not, it's going to be almost impossible to prevent him from starving in QT without an ample supply of pods.
Does your dragonet eat anything other than pods? If not, it's going to be almost impossible to prevent him from starving in QT without an ample supply of pods.
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dangros
Well-Known Member
I see him picking on rocks once in a while but I've never seen anything go IN him - not pods or anything. I just see him nipping on what seems to be empty rock occasionally. That and just sitting there chill'n. I could buy a bunch of pods and dump them into the QT.
The lawnmower is always munching on some of the hair alg. I've been fighting but if I approach, he darts around at speeds I didn't know where possible in such short distances.
Which meds would you use in the QT? I currently have a 50g bottle of NLS ICK Shield powder, a 5g thing of metroplex, and a box of API general cure (which contains 250mg Metronidazole and 75mg praziquantel)
The lawnmower is always munching on some of the hair alg. I've been fighting but if I approach, he darts around at speeds I didn't know where possible in such short distances.
Which meds would you use in the QT? I currently have a 50g bottle of NLS ICK Shield powder, a 5g thing of metroplex, and a box of API general cure (which contains 250mg Metronidazole and 75mg praziquantel)
Your mandy is eating pods when you see him picking on rocks. Copepods are just barely visible to the naked eye. Now here comes the bad news ... it is going to be next to impossible to keep a pod only eating dragonet alive for 72 days in a QT. Even 2-4 weeks of regular QT is tough. Your best bet is to return him to a LFS for store credit. It's not the ideal thing to do I know, but it's the lesser of two evils right now. Just be upfront and tell them he is coming from a tank that suffered a wipeout. Odds are they won't even care about that.
You can QT a lawnmower blenny because they readily accept prepared foods. However, being they are primarily herbivorous you will need to provide nori daily. Since you do not know which disease wiped out your tank, I would treat this fish with copper (ex. Cupramine) for one month, and then Prazipro afterwards. More info below.
You can QT a lawnmower blenny because they readily accept prepared foods. However, being they are primarily herbivorous you will need to provide nori daily. Since you do not know which disease wiped out your tank, I would treat this fish with copper (ex. Cupramine) for one month, and then Prazipro afterwards. More info below.
How to Quarantine: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/
Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly Uronema marinum
How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Coppersafe, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.
Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for allchemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have prolonged life cycles. Indeed, even 30 days may not be long enough in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.
Therapeutic copper levels must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock starts all over again. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; those should not be used in the presence of copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.
Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 3-5 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hours recommended on the labels. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. Remove copper after 30 days by running activated carbon.
Pros - Readily available
Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression is a common side effect. If a fish stops eating, don’t add more copper until he resumes. If the fish is still not eating after 2-3 days, start doing water changes (lowering the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. Some species of fish, such as angels, puffers, lions and mandarins are notoriously difficult to treat with copper.
Prazipro (praziquantel): Treats flukes, black ich, and some internal parasites (worms).
How To Treat - In either a quarantine or display tank, dose Prazipro at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons of water. DO NOT OVERDOSE (especially with wrasses), try not to mix with other medications (for various reasons), and provide additional gas exchange while treating with Prazi. Wait 5-7 days, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.
Prazipro is generally considered reef safe, although it may kill any tube worms/feathers dusters you have. It may also eradicate bristle worms. If you have mass quantities of these, the resulting die-off can lead to an ammonia spike. After treatment is done, activated carbon may be used to remove any residuals (if you need to use a different medication next). If using a protein skimmer post-treatment, be advised that it will “over skim” for at least a couple of weeks.
Pros - Reef safe, effective dewormer that is relatively gentle on most fish.
Cons/Side Effects - Mild appetite suppression, moderate oxygen depletion, wrasses are sensitive to overdosing.
Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly Uronema marinum
How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Coppersafe, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.
Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for allchemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have prolonged life cycles. Indeed, even 30 days may not be long enough in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.
Therapeutic copper levels must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock starts all over again. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; those should not be used in the presence of copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.
Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 3-5 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hours recommended on the labels. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. Remove copper after 30 days by running activated carbon.
Pros - Readily available
Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression is a common side effect. If a fish stops eating, don’t add more copper until he resumes. If the fish is still not eating after 2-3 days, start doing water changes (lowering the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. Some species of fish, such as angels, puffers, lions and mandarins are notoriously difficult to treat with copper.
Prazipro (praziquantel): Treats flukes, black ich, and some internal parasites (worms).
How To Treat - In either a quarantine or display tank, dose Prazipro at the rate of 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons of water. DO NOT OVERDOSE (especially with wrasses), try not to mix with other medications (for various reasons), and provide additional gas exchange while treating with Prazi. Wait 5-7 days, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.
Prazipro is generally considered reef safe, although it may kill any tube worms/feathers dusters you have. It may also eradicate bristle worms. If you have mass quantities of these, the resulting die-off can lead to an ammonia spike. After treatment is done, activated carbon may be used to remove any residuals (if you need to use a different medication next). If using a protein skimmer post-treatment, be advised that it will “over skim” for at least a couple of weeks.
Pros - Reef safe, effective dewormer that is relatively gentle on most fish.
Cons/Side Effects - Mild appetite suppression, moderate oxygen depletion, wrasses are sensitive to overdosing.
I would also order some formalin (I prefer Formalin-MS) to keep on hand, just in case this turns out to be brook and more than copper is needed.
Formalin: Treats Brooklynella and provides temporary relief for Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium). Also may be used as temporary relief, or even as an alternative treatment, for worms such as flukes and black ich.
How To Treat - Formalin is very interesting because its potential is not fully known. It is best administered in a bath solution for 30-45 minutes, following the dosage instructions on whatever bottle you use; or at 150 ppm if using "100% formalin" (ex. Formalin-MS). The bath should be done in a large glass bowl or container, and temperature should match the tank the fish is coming from. A bucket is not advised as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. It is imperative that you heavily aerate the bath solution for at least 30 minutes before and also during treatment to compensate for oxygen depletion. The fish should be placed in a premixed bath solution. DO NOT add more formalin after the fish is already in the bath.
For Brooklynella, multiple baths may be required (so long as symptoms persist), but it’s important to give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths. Formalin has also been used as alternative treatment for external worms such as flukes and black ich. However, at least 2 baths are required (7 days apart) for the same reason described when using Prazipro. For all of the above, post treatment, the fish should not be returned to the same tank/water he came from to prevent reinfection.
You can dose formalin directly in a quarantine tank, but this can be risky due to the harshness of formalin and how quickly it can deplete the water of oxygen.Providing additional gas exchange to the QT is a must! A fish being treated must be monitored closely and should be removed if showing signs of distress - this applies when treating in QT or in the bath solution.
Pros - Treats or provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases. In some cases, formalin can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.
Cons/Side Effects - Formalin contains formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Therefore, precautions must be taken when using it. Preventing your skin from coming in contact with it by wearing water proof gloves and not breathing in any fumes by wearing a face mask is highly recommended. Formalin also can be harsh on the fish and will quickly deplete oxygen from the water. In some areas, the purchase of formalin is prohibited.
Formalin: Treats Brooklynella and provides temporary relief for Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium). Also may be used as temporary relief, or even as an alternative treatment, for worms such as flukes and black ich.
How To Treat - Formalin is very interesting because its potential is not fully known. It is best administered in a bath solution for 30-45 minutes, following the dosage instructions on whatever bottle you use; or at 150 ppm if using "100% formalin" (ex. Formalin-MS). The bath should be done in a large glass bowl or container, and temperature should match the tank the fish is coming from. A bucket is not advised as plastic may absorb some of the medication and then leach it back out during future use. It is imperative that you heavily aerate the bath solution for at least 30 minutes before and also during treatment to compensate for oxygen depletion. The fish should be placed in a premixed bath solution. DO NOT add more formalin after the fish is already in the bath.
For Brooklynella, multiple baths may be required (so long as symptoms persist), but it’s important to give the fish a day to recuperate in-between baths. Formalin has also been used as alternative treatment for external worms such as flukes and black ich. However, at least 2 baths are required (7 days apart) for the same reason described when using Prazipro. For all of the above, post treatment, the fish should not be returned to the same tank/water he came from to prevent reinfection.
You can dose formalin directly in a quarantine tank, but this can be risky due to the harshness of formalin and how quickly it can deplete the water of oxygen.Providing additional gas exchange to the QT is a must! A fish being treated must be monitored closely and should be removed if showing signs of distress - this applies when treating in QT or in the bath solution.
Pros - Treats or provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases. In some cases, formalin can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.
Cons/Side Effects - Formalin contains formaldehyde, a known carcinogen. Therefore, precautions must be taken when using it. Preventing your skin from coming in contact with it by wearing water proof gloves and not breathing in any fumes by wearing a face mask is highly recommended. Formalin also can be harsh on the fish and will quickly deplete oxygen from the water. In some areas, the purchase of formalin is prohibited.
KoleTang
Valuable Member
That appears to be Marine Velvet. The white dots are smaller and fungus can be present as a side effect. (Notice the fungus hanging off the Second Dorsal Fin on the pictured Clown Fish)
Velvet is much more aggressive than ich and should be quarantined as soon as possible.
Velvet is much more aggressive than ich and should be quarantined as soon as possible.
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dangros
Well-Known Member
In 20+ years of saltwater, I've never encountered such a parasitic wipe out. In my old tank, I had fish recover from ich after a couple water changes. They got it after some drywall work was done in the apt (while I was out of town). The tank was left uncovered. Everyone survived and my purple tang lived about 8 years. Ironically, I didn't know 1/2 the stuff I know now and my equipment wasn't as good.
It seems like it would be easier to give both fish up and forego the QT and drugs for now. I can then go fallow for the summer and try to dip back into fish afterwards. I love those 2 guys though. Funny how we establish a connection to these little critters.
Humblefish, any reason you didn't recommend CP over copper in the QT?
On another note, I'm not too confident in my 10g QT setup right now - even as a holding tank for new fish that I eventually get. Seems too small with unstable temp and not much going filtration wise
It seems like it would be easier to give both fish up and forego the QT and drugs for now. I can then go fallow for the summer and try to dip back into fish afterwards. I love those 2 guys though. Funny how we establish a connection to these little critters.
Humblefish, any reason you didn't recommend CP over copper in the QT?
On another note, I'm not too confident in my 10g QT setup right now - even as a holding tank for new fish that I eventually get. Seems too small with unstable temp and not much going filtration wise
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I would say that's defo velvet just been there myself with a complete tank wipeout and tank is presently fallow here is how my clown looked and was confirmed as velvet.
I removed all fish to QT but was to late for them
I removed all fish to QT but was to late for them
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dangros
Well-Known Member
That's Exactly the way a couple of my clowns looked (click on images to get a higher resolution image). Note the stringy thing on the tail as well. It hit the tangs first then one by one the clowns. I also realized that I haven't seen my Sunrise Dottyback in days so it must be toast too. He seemed to get super lethargic and be on the outs. I was able to just grab him w/my hand and tried to oxygenate his lungs by going back and forth slowly in the water. He was stressed but seemed to fully recover, getting better the next day and totally normal afterwards - then simply vanished. By the way, if anyone wants to resuse these images for examples please do so. If it helps others, at least something good will come of it.
It will still be in your system waiting for its next victim it wiped all my fish out within a few days came on fast and very agressive here is the pics of my other fish.
From the reasearch I have done velvet is often misdiagnosed as ich it's not till the fish start dropping like flies but then it's to late
From the reasearch I have done velvet is often misdiagnosed as ich it's not till the fish start dropping like flies but then it's to late
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dangros
Well-Known Member
Wow that stinks. Sorry you had to experience it too. Mine wasnt as aggressive, though. It was probably 2-3 weeks between the first fish showing signs and the last clown to die. In fact, the last clown didn't look like he was doing all that badly till I xfered him to the QT. The clowns didnt really show signs till the 2nd tang went down. I was initially going to drop the salinity but then found out about CP but it was too late by the time it came.
It would be nice if we had a perfect treatment for this stuff one day. Drop the drug in the water, corals and inverts dont care, disease gone... sigh.
It would be nice if we had a perfect treatment for this stuff one day. Drop the drug in the water, corals and inverts dont care, disease gone... sigh.
When someone has an active disease problem, I generally recommend copper over CP in the interest of saving time. By the time you go to a vet, get them to write you a prescription for CP, have it filled by a local pharmacy ... your fish are all dead. Especially when dealing with velvet.
I agree it's probably best for you to rehome the two remaining fish and just start over. Perhaps while the DT is running fallow, you can setup a larger QT you will have more confidence in.
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dangros
Well-Known Member
With NLS ick shield powder, you can get it as quickly as you can get amazon to deliver it. In my case it was 2-3 days. Had I known about it when my yellow tang spotted up, I prob could have saved all 4 clowns and dottyback.
IME; CP in & of itself is not enough to save a fish from velvet (which seems to be the consensus here.) It will effectively shield a fish from reinfection, but you must still do a FW dip and/or formalin bath to assist the fish in dealing with velvet already on the body and inside the gills.
I am aware of the NLS ICK Shield Powder and have seen mixed reviews on it. Some say it works, while others have experienced failure with it. The thing about CP (and this is absolutely critical) is it needs to be pharmaceutical grade 99% pure in order to be truly effective. Being 99% pure CP is an FDA controlled substance, I don't see how one can obtain it without first getting a prescription. However, I will contact NLS this week and see what they tell me when I pose that question to them.
Everything I know about CP can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chloroquine-phosphate.192309/
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dangros
Well-Known Member
Great threat on CP HumbleFish!! I subscribed. Please keep us updated on the findings from NLS. If I need to get the pure version, I'll do so.
Any idea to the shelf life of the pure version vs NLS versions (if you can find out when speaking to NLS)? It would be nice to know if efficacy is compromised by time, climate, etc. Once known, it would be great to have on hand at all times. Especially before I start loading the tank again.
I agree w/you that the inability for the aquarium trade to carry this in a proper over the counter form the way they do other meds is absolutely baffling.
Any idea to the shelf life of the pure version vs NLS versions (if you can find out when speaking to NLS)? It would be nice to know if efficacy is compromised by time, climate, etc. Once known, it would be great to have on hand at all times. Especially before I start loading the tank again.
I agree w/you that the inability for the aquarium trade to carry this in a proper over the counter form the way they do other meds is absolutely baffling.
@dangros I don't know about the NLS stuff (yet), but I recently acquired more CP from a compounding pharmacy and the expiration is 3 years from the date it was packaged. Light will also break CP down, so you need to store it in a dark place.
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dangros
Well-Known Member
@Humblefish Which parma did you order it from?
http://www.pccarx.com/
I don't know that they sell to the public directly. You may need to go thru your vet or local pharmacy first (with a prescription.)
But their's is the best CP I've used thus far. Almost no cloudiness to the water. All other CP I've used has caused at least slightly cloudy water (due to the binder.)
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dangros
Well-Known Member
fantastic! Thanks for all of the great advise. I will see if I can get a vet to fill the prescription for me to have on hand when I stock back up after the fallow period.
So I still haven't pulled the 2 fish out yet. I've been busy and honestly dreading it
I was thinking, however. If I put the dragonette and lawnmower out into the 10g QT, do you think I could keep them alive by putting in some plastic hiding spots, nori (for the blenny), and manually buy and feed pods (for the drag.)?
So I still haven't pulled the 2 fish out yet. I've been busy and honestly dreading it
I was thinking, however. If I put the dragonette and lawnmower out into the 10g QT, do you think I could keep them alive by putting in some plastic hiding spots, nori (for the blenny), and manually buy and feed pods (for the drag.)?
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