Mimicking Tidal Flow in Our Reef Tanks

[jlanger]

Thanks, Ranjib.

I have not achieved a monthly surge program, although I do have the Vortech pumps set up to mimic the rise/fall of the tides.
The four pumps are set up as two pairs; front right with rear left, front left with rear right.
The pumps alternate a three hour full speed cycle nested between a three hour shift.

For months, I had been running multiple modes on the pumps that created a very nice pulsing wave throughout most of the day. When I sat down and calculated the exact amount of flow that the four pumps were creating, I found it to be very low. When pumps are set up in pulse modes, they're constantly cycling on/off which cuts the flow drastically. From doing some research and experimenting, I found decided that the best utilization of the pumps is to run them on the constant mode. The pump is always moving the amount of water that you set as the maximum speed. And from listening to Austin's talk at MACNA where he states that the corals need an incredible amount of flow, I turned up the maximum speed to 100%; contradictory to my previous thoughts. By allowing the slave pumps to remain at a minimum of 25% of maximum speed, random flow is still being created; it just shifts as the cycles change.

 

[stevieduk]

Thanks, Ranjib.

I have not achieved a monthly surge program, although I do have the Vortech pumps set up to mimic the rise/fall of the tides.
The four pumps are set up as two pairs; front right with rear left, front left with rear right.
The pumps alternate a three hour full speed cycle nested between a three hour shift.

For months, I had been running multiple modes on the pumps that created a very nice pulsing wave throughout most of the day. When I sat down and calculated the exact amount of flow that the four pumps were creating, I found it to be very low. When pumps are set up in pulse modes, they're constantly cycling on/off which cuts the flow drastically. From doing some research and experimenting, I found decided that the best utilization of the pumps is to run them on the constant mode. The pump is always moving the amount of water that you set as the maximum speed. And from listening to Austin's talk at MACNA where he states that the corals need an incredible amount of flow, I turned up the maximum speed to 100%; contradictory to my previous thoughts. By allowing the slave pumps to remain at a minimum of 25% of maximum speed, random flow is still being created; it just shifts as the cycles change.

surely if you are going to try and mimic tidal flow to "fool" corals then you need water levels to increase and decrease also as with a tide, to replicate a increase and decrease of pressure

 

[Ranjib]

surely if you are going to try and mimic tidal flow to "fool" corals then you need water levels to increase and decrease also as with a tide, to replicate a increase and decrease of pressure

Probably, but still this is a step further.

I went did some more reading today.I have a 29g tank, ialready havea an mp10, but I dont know how to control is externally. I am leaning towards the koralia DC 12v pump. I am fairly sure I will be able to generate those patterns. What I am still not sure is the relative intensity of those peaks and dips or whether its a smooth rampup /rampdown curve or it has some jitters/noise ...I'll keep you posted , exciting time ahead for reef-pi. I might drop a separate post asking for actual measurement numbers ,I know of at least one post where @Dana Riddle has shared some numbers . I also have to figure out an easy way to measure /validate the resultant motion itself.
@jlanger the user cypho here in r2r

 

[Ikserk]

Probably, but still this is a step further.

I went did some more reading today.I have a 29g tank, ialready havea an mp10, but I dont know how to control is externally. I am leaning towards the koralia DC 12v pump. I am fairly sure I will be able to generate those patterns. What I am still not sure is the relative intensity of those peaks and dips or whether its a smooth rampup /rampdown curve or it has some jitters/noise ...I'll keep you posted , exciting time ahead for reef-pi. I might drop a separate post asking for actual measurement numbers ,I know of at least one post where @Dana Riddle has shared some numbers . I also have to figure out an easy way to measure /validate the resultant motion itself.
@jlanger the user cypho here in r2r

I think cypho goes by @acroporas here on r2r. I think [emoji3]

 

[VR28man]

I run tidals but do not have vortex or any experience with them. I run tunze and gyro or other tunze using a vortex to program the effects they cause. With a gorg specific tank, the tidal effect has benefited it greatly. Love the movement I get. I will have to read more in depth the article written above and see if my input would even be helpful.

@DeniseAndy

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I thought this would be best rather than bring up a new one.

Can you describe how you did your tidal effect in your tank? Are you satisfied with it?

I ask because I've been thinking a lot about this thread and topic. I want to emulate it in a future tank.

 

[DeniseAndy]

@DeniseAndy

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I thought this would be best rather than bring up a new one.

Can you describe how you did your tidal effect in your tank? Are you satisfied with it?

I ask because I've been thinking a lot about this thread and topic. I want to emulate it in a future tank.

I had the tidal effect going using my tunzes for a few years. It was nice. I would have once side do all t he action for part of the day, then change to the other side. At night I would have a calmer mode. Everything grew nicely and fast (gorgs love flow and food). I just changedthem back to a more turbulent flow in the last few months. Mainly just because I got sick of how often I had to clean the tunzes (they collect algae when turned off). I still have one side high power while other low and switch during the day as tides, but do not shut them completely off.

Because the corals I grow are very much in the tidal zones, it worked nicely for my tank and corals.

 

[jzw]

just a couple of notes to this interesting thread...

during my scuba trips to indonesia, we dive just when the tide is beginning to come in or go out, that's when all the big action happens. by action i mean tons of fish... during slack tide, the fish seem to just waitin around... for the next chance to feed during action-time. i second the previous poster from FL, that the tidal flow only goes in 1 direction when coming in, and another going out. there is zero sway, except when a little the tides are changing. and on those reefs, slack tide lasts for maybe an hour, max.

as for the temp change, at least in indo, it's huge. never measured it, but when diving, you can go from nice and warm, to rather chilly in the matter of seconds. the swing must be at least 8 degrees F. there's something called the indonesian flowthru, as i understand it... basically where the pacific and indian oceans squeeze thru the achipalegio, in an effort to equalize water level between the oceans during tides... on top of that, or maybe as a part of that, there's the ocean's natural thermoclime/"great conveyor belt" that passes thru indo... which upwells 'nutrients' from the deep (along wih kinda freezing water).

i've heard from other divers that the water level differences between the pacific and indian oceans can be as much as 12", all gushing inbetween the islands of indo. when diving, i love it when the current is strong enough for your bubbles to go horizontal, with enough force to rip your mask off if you turn sideways. that's when the big action happens. of course you should be on a reef hook at that point. if they made pumps big enuff to mimic that gushing over fields of acros, it might take up the entire side of your tank

has anyone done research on temp fluctuations? a drop from 85 F to 79-74 F should be timed, ime diving, with an incoming or outgoing tide. of course i'm too chicken-sheet to try this in my own tank, lol, somebody else do it!

p.s. can't you just import the maxspect gyre LTC programming into vortechs? of course not lol

 

[Gareth elliott]

just a couple of notes to this interesting thread...

during my scuba trips to indonesia, we dive just when the tide is beginning to come in or go out, that's when all the big action happens. by action i mean tons of fish... during slack tide, the fish seem to just waitin around... for the next chance to feed during action-time. i second the previous poster from FL, that the tidal flow only goes in 1 direction when coming in, and another going out. there is zero sway, except when a little the tides are changing. and on those reefs, slack tide lasts for maybe an hour, max.

as for the temp change, at least in indo, it's huge. never measured it, but when diving, you can go from nice and warm, to rather chilly in the matter of seconds. the swing must be at least 8 degrees F. there's something called the indonesian flowthru, as i understand it... basically where the pacific and indian oceans squeeze thru the achipalegio, in an effort to equalize water level between the oceans during tides... on top of that, or maybe as a part of that, there's the ocean's natural thermoclime/"great conveyor belt" that passes thru indo... which upwells 'nutrients' from the deep (along wih kinda freezing water).

i've heard from other divers that the water level differences between the pacific and indian oceans can be as much as 12", all gushing inbetween the islands of indo. when diving, i love it when the current is strong enough for your bubbles to go horizontal, with enough force to rip your mask off if you turn sideways. that's when the big action happens. of course you should be on a reef hook at that point. if they made pumps big enuff to mimic that gushing over fields of acros, it might take up the entire side of your tank

has anyone done research on temp fluctuations? a drop from 85 F to 79-74 F should be timed, ime diving, with an incoming or outgoing tide. of course i'm too chicken-sheet to try this in my own tank, lol, somebody else do it!

p.s. can't you just import the maxspect gyre LTC programming into vortechs? of course not lol

I had thought about the temperature change as well. The temperature swing varries greatly by location of the reef and possibly time of year depending on latitude.

What i wanted to test was lunar timed temperature changes, as well as influx of microscopic foods.
A reservoir of salt water chilled, heavily mechanicaly filtered , autofeeder feeding coral foods, then removes equal amount of water it replaces using dual peristalsic pump or an AWS but using chilled water.

 

[Want2BS8ed]

This is a great topic and an attribute often missed in the modern reef aquarium.

It's also a frustrating topic given Eco Tech's stubborn refusal to integrate their Vectra Pumps with a WXM. Had I known Eco Tech was going to renig on their original commitment to integrate Vectra's into the Apex environment, I never would have purchased a Vectra in the first place.

In nature, tidal events are lunar driven. My display tank is lit by a combination of Kessil A360's, ATI T5's and Neptune's lunar LED's. The sump is reverse lit by Kessil LED's and T5's. Sun rise/set, moon rise/set/phase (in both the DT and sump) and even temperature are controlled through the Apex's season table.

The season table is populated for a specific reef off the coast of Fiji for both time and temperature.

The DT has two entirely independent closed loops, each driven by a Vectra L1. The intent was to integrate those into the APEX and leverage the season table to simulate tidal events that were at least in sync diurnally if not on a lunar basis.

For the time being, the L1's are programmed through Eco Tech's Reeflink to simulate diurnal tides, however they are static and out of sync with the lights.

I have given up hope on Apex connectivity for the Vectras, but could live with the ability to at least use sync/anti-sync in closed loop mode...

M

 

[VR28man]

I had the tidal effect going using my tunzes for a few years. It was nice. I would have once side do all t he action for part of the day, then change to the other side. At night I would have a calmer mode. Everything grew nicely and fast (gorgs love flow and food). I just changedthem back to a more turbulent flow in the last few months. Mainly just because I got sick of how often I had to clean the tunzes (they collect algae when turned off). I still have one side high power while other low and switch during the day as tides, but do not shut them completely off.

Because the corals I grow are very much in the tidal zones, it worked nicely for my tank and corals.

Yeah that was kind of what I was thinking of. However, given the algae problem, maybe I'll keep the inactive pump on the lowest power setting, rather than turn it off, at “low tide”.

Many corals grow in tidal zones - back reef, inshore, lagoon areas. Even the upper forereef, I think. Only some of the deeper (60ft+) corals I think might not live in such tidally influenced areas, where a more constant flow might be better.

As far as indonesia, that's fascinating. However, tides are dependent on geography. The only reef, a fringing reef, where I know tides well*, tides are usually at the most 2-4ft. every day. (Hanauma bay, HI. Tides and wave height make the difference between a pleasant dive/snorkeling session and a rough, even potentially dangerous one, so if you swim there often you need to be aware. )

That being said, just like JZW said, the coral and fish life on a very active fore reef is awesome, even if you're being washed back and forth on a marginal day, and need to swim hard to get your scuba gear through the channels. That's what I'd like to mimic if I ever start a tank with a lot of (the right kind of) acros.........

 

[jlanger]

Thanks for bringing this discussion back to life.
As of right now, my 120gal has been torn down and I'm waiting for a new tank to arrive so a new build can begin.

There's been a lot of good points brought up over the past few posts that I'd like to respond to, but I'll need more time to find some good information and theories to add to the discussion.
I know of systems that are using temperature tables to mimic the change in water temperature on a regular basis; if not daily.
I have read in other formats the effects of various flow patterns on the reefs that would be interesting to explore in this thread also.
So I'll address these at a later time.

As you can see in the photo at the top of this page, I did program my pumps over to the Constant flow mode v. the Pulse mode. By having the pumps run at a constant speed, they definitely created more water movement than the intermittent pulse modes. The four pumps were set up in alternating pairs that created more of a gyre that reversed itself every six hours; whether that fits into my tidal surge idea or not.
I found that coral growth wasn't negatively affected by the constant blast of water for three hours, so my initial thoughts of having a ramping pulse of flow is no longer a criteria that needs to be included.

I'm excited to see what I can accomplish with my new system; new tank, new rock, new aquascaping, new controller, new return pump but with the same Vortech pumps.

 

[Wicky48]

Ok I am going to read this in full later as I do have to work soon but here it is I'm gonna spit this out and just see what the comments are when I come home. Is tidal flow not just a raising and lowering of the water level, water pressure and the exsponshing(not sure if I spelled that correctly) of waste onto the shoreline and providing new trace elements to the reef? Ok so the moon is responsible but basically it is pulling the water closer to itself when it passes then the gravity falls away from the moon allowing the water to spread out again causing tides.

So As I am building a new reef tank and have a thread on here for the build one of my major interests was about tidal flow and getting the correct action in the tank to duplicate this and POW! Here is this article, you guys rock and like I said I am going to read all this when I come home. I was thinking of a pump system that would extract water in the top of the tank into a lets say acrylic holding system. As the water filled up the mechanics of this system at a certain point would be heavy to one side and flip to let the water out , triggering the mechanism to go back to its original state, thus again filling with water and the same action happens again. As the day goes on to tidal time the water would flow more rapidly causing this effect to spill out larger and take larger amounts of water from the tank spilling it back in again essentially creating a wave action. The only problem I cannot figure out yet is how to control my ATO. If water comes out of the tank and spills back in, if the timing is just not right, the ATO will come on filling more water and you can see where this is going, a big mess. I will draw up a diagram this weekend to explain my idea but I can say this if the pump dedicated to this ever failed, no harm done as your wave machine simply wouldn't work and the water level would just stay the same. More later on this very interesting topic!!!

 

[Wicky48]

Ok here is an idea about the ATO, put it way below the water level so it is not triggered until the water level is very low. So your ATO would not come on as much. Would this cause a problem? Cheers!

 

[rosshamsandwich]

cheers

 

[stevieduk]

we cant even get EcoTech stuff here in the U.K. so i guess i dont have to bother myself with things like tidal flow patterns

 

[rosshamsandwich]

what can you get? jebao? maxxspecvt?
glamorca?

 

[stevieduk]

Ha this is the U.K. the third world in regards to marine equipment and livestock. None of your equipment suppliers will ship over hear so equipment wise we can get MaxiFlow Power heads and T5 lights. I always said if i came on holiday to America i would come with two LARGE empty suitcases and fill them up with fish stuff. When i read about all the equipment you have there i get depressed.
And another thing , why is World Wide Corals called that when they dont sell outside the U S A !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rosshamsandwich]

sucks to be you
go talk to david saxby

 

[stevieduk]

who is he

 

[Gareth elliott]

Ha this is the U.K. the third world in regards to marine equipment and livestock. None of your equipment suppliers will ship over hear so equipment wise we can get MaxiFlow Power heads and T5 lights. I always said if i came on holiday to America i would come with two LARGE empty suitcases and fill them up with fish stuff. When i read about all the equipment you have there i get depressed.
And another thing , why is World Wide Corals called that when they dont sell outside the U S A !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are collectively all trying to get more participants in the world series