Precipitation? Should I change dosing schedule?

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Any recommendations of dosing schedule change? Am I dealing with some precipitation?

My tank is a heavy stocked 90 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump. I'm using 162ml a day of each 3 aquaforest parts and im using 2600ml a night of kalkwasser(I dailed it back some it was 3000ml). I dose the 123+ via ghl doser that's set to 54 doses of 3ml around the clock every 24hrs. Simultaneously I dose 2600ml of kalkwasser from 11pm to 9:45am.

I'm using 2.3 dkh a day. I just think that's a little high. I'm seeing some white residue around dosing area and hard build up around dosing lines. And I also noticing some white buildup around some of my pumps. It's not anything crazy and it's not stopping any of my equipment but it's something that has showed up a little more then normal.

I am doing the 3 Part and kalk all in the same little area, it's the 4 dose line holder on the icecap sump so they are all in the same 3 or 4 inches. Im thinking of moving the kalk line to the skimmer compartment.

I would rather not stop dosing bc alk falls pretty fast if so and I rather keep the consistency but if im dealing with precipitation I guess it's a must.

My ph stays 8.25 to 8.35. I used to have it a little higher like it would top 8.55 during the day but i was dosing kalk 24hr. I snice started only at night and that made my ph much more consistent.

If it's precipitation is it from dosing kalk and the 3 part at the same times?
I do see some of the auto generated dosing time for the ghl 3 part are close together like a couple mins apart. I guess it's like that bc I'm dosing 54 times a day and there is only so many options between the 3, that it falls closer together then I would want at times.

How should I proceed? What you you do?
Sorry so long, hopefully I explained myself well enough.

 

[Dburr1014]

Alk and cal should be 20 min apart, 30 min is better.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Backing off on the pH would be my recommendation. Is the sand hardening?

This is my generic recommendation for precipitation issues:

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Alk and cal should be 20 min apart, 30 min is better.

Thats for the reply. Interesting.. I recall reading that as long as it wasn't dosing at the same time. I think that was quoted from Randy Holmes but I could be wrong.
I need to research that and maybe change my dosing schedule on the 3 part.

I always thought dosing more smaller doses compared to dosing a few large dosings was better for alkalinity stability.

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Yes Randy I have experienced some sand hardening, I know for sure I had a chuck in the front get hard like a brick. I couldn't even break it up.

Should I not worry about the alk dropping too much or too fast? Is it safe for sps?

Thanks for the help! Much appreciated!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is the alk now?

The drop slows a lot as it goes below 7 dKH.

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Backing off on the pH would be my recommendation. Is the sand hardening?

This is my generic recommendation for precipitation issues:

1. Stop all efforts to boost pH.
2. Stop dosing alk for a bit and let it decline.
3. Reduce pH by switching to a low pH alk mix like sodium bicarbonate, or a calcium organic such as Tropic Marin All for Reef.
4. Ensure magnesium is normal to high.
5. Keep organics and phosphate on the high side.

After a few days of not dosing alk, restart slowly, adding additives to a very high flow area so it mixes in fast.

Also do you think I can get away with only 24hrs of no dosing?

Also I would rather keep my PH 8.2 to 8.3. I have made changes to not see the 8.4 to 8.5 range already.

My reef was seeing 7.8 at times before my changes which was a probably a couple years back. I been doing this routine for awhile now. I fixed the 8.4 to 8.5 ph probably 2 months ago.

My reef is doing so much better now that my ph don't have the huge swing it had before. At the beginning of this I would see 7.8 at night and 8.4 during the day. I have a big family and back in the day before all this i even seen it drop below 7.8 when my kids had friends over.

Do you see any harm in my keeping my low swing of ph between 8.2 and 8.3? It just it does so much better. Before my sps would just be stagnant and not grow.

Thanks

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

What is the alk now?

The drop slows a lot as it goes below 7 dKH.

Oh okay well that makes more sense. I didn't know that below 7 it would slow down.

It is at 8.4 and try hard to keep it between 8 and 8.5. I just know it drops really fast but I never let it drop below 7.8 l, I also caught it in time.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Think of your options this way...

You want the concentration of carbonate to drop to interrupt the precipitation process and allow magnesium, organics, and phosphate to coat any bare CaCO3 surfaces to prevent it acting as a seed crystal for more precipitation.. The more you drop carbonate, the better.

A drop in alk from 9 to 7 dKH is a 22% drop in carbonate.

A drop from pH 8.5 to pH 8.2 is about 50% drop in carbonate.

Thus, pH is a bigger driver and just stopping the kalkwasser for now might be a good option, and see what happens.

 

[Dburr1014]

Thats for the reply. Interesting.. I recall reading that as long as it wasn't dosing at the same time. I think that was quoted from Randy Holmes but I could be wrong.
I need to research that and maybe change my dosing schedule on the 3 part.

I always thought dosing more smaller doses compared to dosing a few large dosings was better for alkalinity stability.

100% agree smaller doses are better, especially when we are talking about alkalinity.
But you don't want to dose calcium and alkalinity about the same time. You need to have an evacuation of the Chamber you are dosing in before the other one doses. In other words, having alkalinity and calcium dosing at the same time in the same chamber will also give you a precipitation event.

But I think Randy trumps me on anything I say, LOL.
Good luck and happy reefing.

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Think of your options this way...

You want the concentration of carbonate to drop to interrupt the precipitation process and allow magnesium, organics, and phosphate to coat any bare CaCO3 surfaces to prevent it acting as a seed crystal for more precipitation.. The more you drop carbonate, the better.

A drop in alk from 9 to 7 dKH is a 22% drop in carbonate.

A drop from pH 8.5 to pH 8.2 is about 50% drop in carbonate.

Thus, pH is a bigger driver and just stopping the kalkwasser for now might be a good option, and see what happens.

I think I will halt all dosing for at least 24hrs while watching alk level close, and go longer if alk level isn't below say 7.5.
I will then start the 3 part dosing back and wait awhile to ramp kalk back in and see what happens. I really would like to stay in that 8.2 to 8.3 range if possible. I will definitely do my best to not let it climb past 8.3.
Does that sound like a okay plan to start with? I can always go more aggressive with it if need be later.



Question. Could you look at my dosing schedules above and let me know how you would set it up once all dosing is back online.
Again I'm dosing 3 ml of each aquaforest 3 part 54 times a day. The ghl doser takes that and devides it up in 24hrs. And the kalk was dripping from a versa from 11pm to 9:35am.


Should I at least stop the 2 part dosing during the times the kalk is dosing? Or dosing kalk in another chamber is suffice? This is for once I get a handle on the precipitation issue and I ramp all dosing back slowly. Again thx

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Think of your options this way...

You want the concentration of carbonate to drop to interrupt the precipitation process and allow magnesium, organics, and phosphate to coat any bare CaCO3 surfaces to prevent it acting as a seed crystal for more precipitation.. The more you drop carbonate, the better.

A drop in alk from 9 to 7 dKH is a 22% drop in carbonate.

A drop from pH 8.5 to pH 8.2 is about 50% drop in carbonate.

Thus, pH is a bigger driver and just stopping the kalkwasser for now might be a good option, and see what happens.

Randy Holmes-Farley I have some data to report.

Yesterday at 6pm I turned off ALL dosing. Alkalinity was 8.4 and PH was 8.33. It's been 10 hours now and Alkalinity is 7.6 dkh and PH dropped to 8 over the night and has been holding steady.

I'm thinking about turning the kalk on first, only due to the aquaforest 123 has minor and trace elements and I was thinking if Its been precipitating I may be running high on those due to the overdosing amounts of 3 part. I didn't think about until now, that may have the risk to really throw things off I imagine. Maybe you can correct me.

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Think of your options this way...

You want the concentration of carbonate to drop to interrupt the precipitation process and allow magnesium, organics, and phosphate to coat any bare CaCO3 surfaces to prevent it acting as a seed crystal for more precipitation.. The more you drop carbonate, the better.

A drop in alk from 9 to 7 dKH is a 22% drop in carbonate.

A drop from pH 8.5 to pH 8.2 is about 50% drop in carbonate.

Thus, pH is a bigger driver and just stopping the kalkwasser for now might be a good option, and see what happens.

After posted earlier @ 10:30am when alk was 7.6 turned on the versa to dose 2liters of kalk.

I just now measured alk and its 7.3. So from 10:30am until now it's consumed 0.97 dkh.

I moved my kalkwasser line to the output of skimmer which is in the 2nd compartment of my sump. I also put a small pump there and put the line in the output of pump. The 3part dosing lines are in the 3rd compartment, I'm also going to put a small wave pump below the lines there. I did this in hopes of everything mixing well before traveling to the next camber during number flow.

I'm going to start back with 3 part and see what happens.

Does any of this sound like a bad move? Anything I should do differently? Thx

 

[Dburr1014]

After posted earlier @ 10:30am when alk was 7.6 turned on the versa to dose 2liters of kalk.

I just now measured alk and its 7.3. So from 10:30am until now it's consumed 0.97 dkh.

I moved my kalkwasser line to the output of skimmer which is in the 2nd compartment of my sump. I also put a small pump there and put the line in the output of pump. The 3part dosing lines are in the 3rd compartment, I'm also going to put a small wave pump below the lines there. I did this in hopes of everything mixing well before traveling to the next camber during number flow.

I'm going to start back with 3 part and see what happens.

Does any of this sound like a bad move? Anything I should do differently? Thx

You should be testing at the same time everyday.
Dose based on that.

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

You should be testing at the same time everyday.
Dose based on that.

I dose based on multiple test a day. I assure you I have alk locked it. I can hold it 8.4 steady.

this exercise is due to a precipitation event. I am following recommendations from Randy to deal with it. I can easily go back to what I was doing but that will defect the purpose. I'm hoping to cut down on 3 part and kalkwasser use, I have sand that is hardening, calcium buildup in sump and using alot of chemical to hold 8.4.

My daily drop based on 3 part and kalk is 2.3.

I have made changes as in moving kalkwasser line away from the 3 part dosing lines. I had them together due to the sumps built-in dosing holders, it was too tempting to use. Lesson learned.

I'm going to slowing ramp 3 part back in and hopefully I fall at a lower consumption. We will see.

I just took the top 2 pics and lights are about to go off and coral is not as expanded. Normally these tanks don't have much visible space during mid day. My demand may come back just as much. I

 

[ReefOnTheBayou]

Well consumption is pretty much right back where it was. I'm only 12ml under what I was dosing. It seems I may land back on the same number before its all over.

I guess It wasn't much that was precipitating or I didn't go doseless for long enough. I'm not seeing the white precipitation on the top of water in the sump though. The location change on the kalk and the addition of 2 pumps at dosing locations helped for that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well consumption is pretty much right back where it was. I'm only 12ml under what I was dosing. It seems I may land back on the same number before its all over.

I guess It wasn't much that was precipitating or I didn't go doseless for long enough. I'm not seeing the white precipitation on the top of water in the sump though. The location change on the kalk and the addition of 2 pumps at dosing locations helped for that.

Well, from the pic and can believe that tank consumes 2-3 dKH per day, so maybe that's just the norm for it.