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[Freenow54]

I would not agonize over free vs total ammonia,. If you detect no total ammonia, there's no ammonia concern.

Odd the API was so different than Salifert concerning but which is correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Odd the API was so different than Salifert concerning but which is correct?

The API ammonia kit is known for showing a small amount of ammonia when other tests do not.

 

[Dan_P]

So interested as to fire heat is given to a solid and the gases reach a combustible temp when O2 is added it will combust. Using this approach what actually happens when ammonia touches the fish it being a chemical reaction?

I don’t know the mechanism by which ammonia damages gill tissue. That is probably found by a Google search.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ammonia toxicity in fish - PubMed

Ammonia is present in the aquatic environment due to agricultural run-off and decomposition of biological waste. Ammonia is toxic to all vertebrates causing convulsions, coma and death, probably because elevated NH4+ displaces K+ and depolarizes neurons, causing activation of NMDA type glutamate...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ammonia is toxic to all vertebrates causing convulsions, coma and death, probably because elevated NH4+ displaces K+ and depolarizes neurons, causing activation of NMDA type glutamate receptor, which leads to an influx of excessive Ca2+ and subsequent cell death in the central nervous system.

 

[Malcontent]

Ammonia is a metabolic byproduct. It's converted to uric acid or urea in other animals who don't have a convenient water bath to whisk it away. It just diffuses through the gills. The problem is when the environment has an equal or greater level of ammonia. Ammonia can no longer leave the blood and may actually diffuse from the water to the blood. The accumulation in the blood then becomes neurotoxic as mentioned earlier.

The ionized form of ammonia, NH4+, is non-volatile and can't diffuse across the gills. Alternative, an ammonia binder could theoretically bind free ammonia and also prevent diffusion/lower the partial pressure in the environment.

One of the only ways to test for free ammonia is to use a hydrophobic membrane as a sort of synthetic gill. The Seachem ammonia tests and Seneye work this way. They are likely manufactured by Pacific Sentry who produces a variety of free (gaseous) ammonia sensors.

This is why these free ammonia tests can be used to test if a product actually detoxifies ammonia.

 

[Freenow54]

Ammonia toxicity in fish - PubMed

Ammonia is present in the aquatic environment due to agricultural run-off and decomposition of biological waste. Ammonia is toxic to all vertebrates causing convulsions, coma and death, probably because elevated NH4+ displaces K+ and depolarizes neurons, causing activation of NMDA type glutamate...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ammonia is toxic to all vertebrates causing convulsions, coma and death, probably because elevated NH4+ displaces K+ and depolarizes neurons, causing activation of NMDA type glutamate receptor, which leads to an influx of excessive Ca2+ and subsequent cell death in the central nervous system.

So I read about it are you talking about excitotoxity? Which do I understand is voltage driven?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I read about it are you talking about excitotoxity? Which do I understand is voltage driven?

IMO, it is not worth trying to get a molecular level understanding of the mechanisms of many of the toxicities that most concern us (ammonia in cycling, copper, tin, etc.). In most cases, it is not well understood and knowing it may not be helpful anyway.

I mention it here:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Toxicity of Ammonia

---

Ammonia is very toxic to marine fish. The mechanisms of toxicity are complicated and are an active area of continued investigation by researchers. Its effects include damage to the gills, resulting in poor gas exchange, ion regulation and blood pH regulation.14 Other effects include hampering oxygen delivery to tissues, disrupting metabolism and toxicity to the nervous system that causes hyperactivity, convulsions and death.14 Ammonia can also be very toxic to many other organisms found in reef aquaria.

 

[Malcontent]

Here's a good paper on ammonia diffusion and toxicity.

 

[Freenow54]

Ammonia is a metabolic byproduct. It's converted to uric acid or urea in other animals who don't have a convenient water bath to whisk it away. It just diffuses through the gills. The problem is when the environment has an equal or greater level of ammonia. Ammonia can no longer leave the blood and may actually diffuse from the water to the blood. The accumulation in the blood then becomes neurotoxic as mentioned earlier.

The ionized form of ammonia, NH4+, is non-volatile and can't diffuse across the gills. Alternative, an ammonia binder could theoretically bind free ammonia and also prevent diffusion/lower the partial pressure in the environment.

One of the only ways to test for free ammonia is to use a hydrophobic membrane as a sort of synthetic gill. The Seachem ammonia tests and Seneye work this way. They are likely manufactured by Pacific Sentry who produces a variety of free (gaseous) ammonia sensors.

This is why these free ammonia tests can be used to test if a product actually detoxifies ammonia.

Thanks its all interesting

 

[Freenow54]

IMO, it is not worth trying to get a molecular level understanding of the mechanisms of many of the toxicities that most concern us (ammonia in cycling, copper, tin, etc.). In most cases, it is not well understood and knowing it may not be helpful anyway.

I mention it here:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Toxicity of Ammonia

---

Ammonia is very toxic to marine fish. The mechanisms of toxicity are complicated and are an active area of continued investigation by researchers. Its effects include damage to the gills, resulting in poor gas exchange, ion regulation and blood pH regulation.14 Other effects include hampering oxygen delivery to tissues, disrupting metabolism and toxicity to the nervous system that causes hyperactivity, convulsions and death.14 Ammonia can also be very toxic to many other organisms found in reef aquaria.

Just interesting because it is linked to so many things in humans as well strokes ect

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just interesting because it is linked to so many things in humans as well strokes ect

True, ammonia toxicity is a real concern in people. I was on the scientific advisory board of a company working on a treatment for hyperammonemia in people, but they were acquired and that project was shut down before a suitable treatment was developed.

Hyperammonemia: What It Is, Causes, Symptoms & Treatment

Hyperammonemia is a condition that happens when you have high levels of ammonia in your blood. It can be life-threatening and requires immediate medical treatment.

my.clevelandclinic.org

 

[Freenow54]

That is wild. I was talking about it in generality. Under exictotoxity ( don't ask me to pronounce it without practice ) It was linked to all sorts of things alcoholic withdrawal on and on

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

True, ammonia toxicity is a real concern in people. I was on the scientific advisory board of a company working on a treatment for hyperammonemia in people, but they were acquired and that project was shut down before a suitable treatment was developed.

Hyperammonemia: What It Is, Causes, Symptoms & Treatment

Hyperammonemia is a condition that happens when you have high levels of ammonia in your blood. It can be life-threatening and requires immediate medical treatment.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Maybe could we dose lactulose? (Kidding!!)

 

[Freenow54]

True, ammonia toxicity is a real concern in people. I was on the scientific advisory board of a company working on a treatment for hyperammonemia in people, but they were acquired and that project was shut down before a suitable treatment was developed.

Hyperammonemia: What It Is, Causes, Symptoms & Treatment

Hyperammonemia is a condition that happens when you have high levels of ammonia in your blood. It can be life-threatening and requires immediate medical treatment.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Unfortunate that it was shut down. I know we are way off topic. However they used to use it for making ice surfaces because it is a very good refrigerant. I was in a class where they had a person who worked with it come to advise us about its applications. He had been exposed so long that he could no longer smell it. Thankfully that practice was stopped. They went to salt brine sometimes with ammonia as a indirect application. That is why ice surfaces are not as hard anymore. I always wondered what it did to effect his smell. I find things like that interesting. So I appreciate you humouring me. I was reading an article about the relationship between pH, free ammonia,and total. I lost it somehow,but see the list of your articles. That should entertain me for a while,and not bother anyone. Anyway thanks again

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was reading an article about the relationship between pH, free ammonia,and total. I lost it somehow,but see the list of your articles. That should entertain me for a while,and not bother anyone. Anyway thanks again

My article linked above has a bunch of discussion and graphs of that:

Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Figure 1. The fraction of free ammonia (NH3) and ammonium ion (NH4+) present in seawater as a function of pH.