Red Sea Reef Foundation / 2-Part Question

FFFishy · Apr 8, 2016

Is Red Sea Reef Foundation A and B considered to be a 2-Part system, or are they additives ?
The difference, in my opinion, is that both parts of a 2-Part system would be dosed in equal quantities where supplements would be added "as needed" to meet your tank's needs.

I've been dosing Reef Foundation A and B (with some periodic dosing of C - Mag) for the past 3 months. My 'A' (Calcium) dose is 8ml/day and my 'B' (Alk Buffer) dose is 25ml/day. No where near equal. I believe that my water parameters are stable. Measured 2 times per week, I see:

Calcium = 420-440
Alk = 3.1 - 3.3 (or 8.68 - 9.24)
Mag = 1220 - 1250

Others (measured weekly):
Nitrate = 1.5 - 2.5
Nitrite = 0
Ammonia = 0
Phosphate = .02 - .03

Tank is 20 months old. 140 Gallons total water volume. A few soft corals. No SPS.

Am I dosing incorrectly ? Should the daily dose for Parts A and B be equal ?

Thanks !

Downbeach · Apr 8, 2016

Have you considered your WC's? Keep in mind that your WC's are better able to keep up with your Ca and Mg demands better than your alk. Your alk is taken up at an approximate rate of 5 parts(50ppm/2.8dKH) to every 2 parts(18-20ppm) of Ca, with your Mg at about 10% of your Ca demand.

Rob Lion · Apr 8, 2016

also, are you using Red Sea LIQUID or POWDER parts A and B? because the powder form is half the strength of the liquid form for ALK foundation B. So if you are using the powder type, that's equivalent to you using 8ml Ca to 12.5 ml Alk.

plus, its not just corals that consume Alk, bacteria can too in needing a carbon source etc.

rockskimmerflow · Apr 8, 2016

Red Sea's premixed A and B Calcium and alkalinity use a very high concentration of calcium. It is not possible to dissolve an amount of buffer into solution that would match the calcium in a 1:1 balanced 2 part. The ratio should be approximately 1 part calcium to 3 parts buffer assuming balanced uptake. Start with that ratio and then use testing to adjust for variance. A lot of people get confused by the high alkalinity to calcium use ratio in red sea's premixed system. Not to worry though, it is by design since they promote having a super concentrated calcium component. Hope that helps.

You are almost at exactly 1:3 ratio right now based on your testing -Good work and sounds like its dialed in properly. Keep doing what you do if the tests are holding for you!

FFFishy · Apr 9, 2016

Downbeach, my water changes are a little over 10% weekly (changing 15 gallons of 140 total). I'm using Tropic Marin Bio Actif salt which tests to Calc=450, Mag=1400, Alk=3.00 I add enough Red Sea Reef Foundation B (to my water change bucket) to get the Alk to 3.2 before doing the water change. So, my understanding was that the water change itself would not affect my Calc / Mag / Alk levels.

Rob, I'm using the Red Sea pre-mixed liquids, 500ml bottles, for everything (A, B, and C). That's one of the reasons I was expecting to be adding equal parts of A and B.

Rockskimmerflow, thank you very much ! That's the information that I was missing. I feel much better about my dosing now. I'll continue along the same path with dosing and testing.

dbl · Apr 9, 2016

Agree with others. I too use the pre-mixed formulas and it works out to be about 3:1 ration B to A. If your testing is consistent test to test, it appears you have it dialed in correctly.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 9, 2016

I do not understand why they designed it this way, but the Red Sea Foundation program is not a balanced calcium and additive system for equal parts dosing.

Here's what I mean about it not being designed for equal parts dosing...

The demand for calcium and alkalinity in calcification is about 18-20 ppm calcium (depending on how much magnesium is incorporated) for each 1 meq/L (2.8 dKH) of alkalinity.

The Red Sea products claim:

http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/reef_foundation_program/reef-foundation-a/
Liquid supplement: 1ml will raise the Ca level of 100 liters (25 gal) by 2ppm.

http://www.redseafish.com/reef-care-program/reef_foundation_program/reef-foundation-b/
Liquid supplement: 1ml will raise the alkalinity of 100 liters (25gal) by 0.036 meq/l (0.1dKH)

So that 1 mL per 25 gallon dose adds 2 ppm calcium and 0.036 meq/L alkalinity, which is a ratio of 56 ppm calcium for each 1 meq/L, or ~2.8 times too potent for calcium.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 9, 2016

Rob Lion said:
also, are you using Red Sea LIQUID or POWDER parts A and B? because the powder form is half the strength of the liquid form for ALK foundation B. So if you are using the powder type, that's equivalent to you using 8ml Ca to 12.5 ml Alk.

plus, its not just corals that consume Alk, bacteria can too in needing a carbon source etc.

Noncalcifying organisms may certainly take up bicarbonate as a carbon source, but they do not actually deplete the alkalinity. They simply strip away the CO2 from it, but add the alkalinity back to the water:

HCO3- + H2O --> CO2 + OH-
bicarbonate and water taken up --> CO2 used plus hydroxide released back to the water

That hydroxide provides alkalinity as is, but also combines with more CO2 from the air to make more HCO3- again.

Rob Lion · Apr 9, 2016

dang, i've misled myself all this time..... I know that the powder Alk B ends up at half the strength of the pre-made liquid Alk B, but i didn't realise that there was also a difference between the strengths of the A and B formulars.....
I currently dose 45ml Ca A and 300ml Alk B and 15ml Mg C daily spread out over 12 hours during lights on. So you are correct, 300ml/2 =150ml (due to powder being weaker) = equivalent of 135ml Ca / 150ml Alk
Thank you from me too.. I just thought I was losing tons of Alk somewhere, like from bacteria etc.....

I've just re checked the boxes etc.... for Powder Ca is 1 ml = 2ppm/100L , 1ml Alk is 0.012Meq = 0.6ppm/100L for powder that's a 3.333 : 1 ratio

45x3.333 = 150 ml ! it works out exactly ... i'm starting to love reefing mathematics

so FFFishy, you being liquid based, need Alk = 3.333 X Ca used = 3.333x8 = 26.67 Alk to balance

Rob Lion · Apr 9, 2016

Thank you Randy, I'm just happy i too can make sence of it, i was sure my alk was being eaten up, stolen or stored somewhere.....

Now all I have to do, is to stop the precipitation :/ i'll start a new thread on that one i think.......

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 9, 2016

Rob Lion said:
Thank you Randy, I'm just happy i too can make sence of it, i was sure my alk was being eaten up, stolen or stored somewhere.....

Now all I have to do, is to stop the precipitation :/ i'll start a new thread on that one i think.......

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

FFFishy · Apr 9, 2016

Much Thanks, Randy ! Now it all makes more sense to me.

Thanks Rob for the "Reef Math" ! As you've stated, the ratio for the powdered version would be 1 alk to 3.33 calc.

So I'm pretty close. Since I'm using the pre-mixed liquids, Alk should be 2.8X Calc, as Randy stated. I'm at 8ml Calc and 25ml Alk which works out to 1:3.125 ratio. I'll try increasing my Calc dose to 9 and see what happens. I'm not expecting a big change. Considering 'testing accuracy' and 'dosing pump consistency' I'm not sure I'll see any change at all. I'll report back and let everyone know . . .

jabell · Apr 9, 2016

Red Sea claims that alkalinity is depleted from the water during cycling while using their reef mature pro kit. They say it is due to the biological processes using this alkalinity. I'm assuming they mean from the proliferation of beneficial bacteria. I have not found this to be the case. I have not needed to dose their alk buffer like they say you should. I actually have the opposite happening. My alk is rising on its own for no apparent reason. Started my tank around 8.5. Now it has risen to 11. I don't understand.

FFFishy · Apr 9, 2016

Jabell, are you doing your water changes with Red Sea Coral Pro salt ? When mixed to a salinity of 1.026 (35ppt), it has an Alk of about 12.5 dKH. Depending upon the frequency and size of water changes, and the consumption within your tank, Coral Pro salt can increase your alkalinity.

jabell · Apr 9, 2016

I thought that could be it but I am using the blue bucket which mixes in the low 8's at 1.026 sg.

jabell · Apr 9, 2016

I thought it could be a testing error but I have used two different test kits.

Rob Lion · Apr 9, 2016

whats your calcium readings? i think that if calcium goes down, alk can go up and vise versa.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 9, 2016

jabell said:
Red Sea claims that alkalinity is depleted from the water during cycling while using their reef mature pro kit. They say it is due to the biological processes using this alkalinity. I'm assuming they mean from the proliferation of beneficial bacteria. I have not found this to be the case. I have not needed to dose their alk buffer like they say you should. I actually have the opposite happening. My alk is rising on its own for no apparent reason. Started my tank around 8.5. Now it has risen to 11. I don't understand.

The nitrogen cycle from ammonia to nitrite consumes alkalinity. If nitrate is allowed to accumulate to 50 ppm, the addition of this acid will deplete 0.8 meq/L (2.3 dKH) of alkalinity.

When nitrate is consumed (by bacteria or algae or corals, the exact reverse is true, and all of the alk comes back). If it is exported by water change, you do not get any of it back.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 9, 2016

jabell said:
Red Sea claims that alkalinity is depleted from the water during cycling while using their reef mature pro kit. They say it is due to the biological processes using this alkalinity. I'm assuming they mean from the proliferation of beneficial bacteria. I have not found this to be the case. I have not needed to dose their alk buffer like they say you should. I actually have the opposite happening. My alk is rising on its own for no apparent reason. Started my tank around 8.5. Now it has risen to 11. I don't understand.

What do you top off with?
Is it artificial rock?