RO system with 1000 GPD

[Richi888]

Hello friends,

Im planning to build a RO system with two 500 GPD membranes in parallel use (not in series) in order to get 1000 GPD at the end. The setup is roughly as follows:

Sediment Filter -> Carbon filter -> Booster Pump -> Y connector which separates into two tubes -> two 500 GPD membrane for each tube -> Y connector to combine the tubes again -> ...

The membranes Im planning to use are: M-T3012A-500 from Applied Membranes which you can find here: https://appliedmembranes.com/media/wysiwyg/pdf/membranes/ami_home_ro_membrane_elements.pdf. Was also thinking about using DOW FILMTEC TW30-3012-500.

Im looking for a booster pump, which brings enough power so that I finally get 1000 GPD out at the end.
Im really depressed right now, I thought this Aquatec 500-1000 GPD pump https://www.freshwatersystems.com/p...-1000-gpd-3-8-jg-24vdc?variant=40167664615608 might work, but then the customer service said its not enough. I thought a booster pump which is described to bring 500-1000 GPD can also power 2 x 500 GPD to output 1000 GPD at the end?

Can you recommend a high quality pump which fits for my system?


Have a great day!
Richi

 

[mann1139]

You have mixed up your input into the system with your output.

If you want to output 1,000 GPD, and your rejection rate is 5:1, you need to input 6,000 GPD.

If your source water TDS isn't too high, I would suggest looking at running those membranes in series. You wouldn't need as large of an input pump.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

I use 3 water saver membranes. The last I checked I was close to 1:1. I have about 220 gallons is system volume (x2.1, one 6g nano). I keep 100g Ro on hand and 50 salt mix read to go. I can easily refill the 100G in a 3-4 hours. I calculated my max but I don’t recall what it is. I think those are 200 membranes. My pressure is at 85 pounds. I have the auto flush valve, but I think it needs to be adjusted and I can’t find an allen wrench that small. I need to keep the unit on all the time as it splits off before the DI and feeds my sink and ice makers. I think I am wasting WAY more water then I should with the auto flush valve. My goal wasn’t how much output could I max out at, I simply wanted to eliminate as much waste when producing RO as possible while ensure I could refill my reserves in an afternoon. But, this auto flush valve situation needs attention.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I have the BRS Six Stage System with the second membrane, and it puts out 240 GPD, of purified water, With the booster Pump set at 75 psi I’m at 1 to around 1.3. TDS output is 1, on well water input. At work they had a Cathy / Annie (sp) System that could put out an almost unlimited supply of water. It had to be back-flushed every couple of days. A company came out and Acid Flushed one type of media, and flushed the other media with a caustic.

 

[KStatefan]

Look at flow rate ratings on your carbon filters.

I would want to talk to someone that has done commercial systems @Buckeye Hydro

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

If your source water TDS isn't too high, I would suggest looking at running those membranes in series. You wouldn't need as large of an input pump.

It's not TDS we're concerned with here, but rather the subset of TDS that forms scale, otherwise known as hardness.

So when we install commercial RO systems, a water softener is almost always a mandatory pretreatment. The lack of hardness in the feedwater is what allows commercial RO systems to run at close to a 1:1 ratio of concentrate to permeate.

If you have hardness in the water, don't run your membranes in series, and keep the concentrate at 3 to 5 times the permeate flow. It is this issue that make so-called "water-saver" ro systems, when installed without knowledge of the feedwater quality, such an ill-advised configuration.

 

[Richi888]

Thanks so much guys, really appreciate your time!
@Buckeye Hydro Yes I was thinking about using it in parallel exactly because of hardness (we have around 350 PPM and quiet high dH). Since I try not to use an ion exchange resin before (havent looked to much into it but with 1000GPD and 350 PPM I think I need to change/regenerate those 10" cartridge every 3 days or so?), I was thinking about using two 500 GPD Axeon TF-3012-500 membranes (40% recovery) with a 1:3 ratio and hope that ratio is enough. If I want 1000 GPD permeat, I need around 4000 GPD feedwater at that 1:3 ratio.


1) Can you recommend a good compact pump for this?

2) Is 3/8 tubes enough for the system or is 1/2 better in order to get those 1000 GPD permeat out?

3) Is there a better membrane out there than the Axeon TF-3012-500 which gives 500 GPD at even more than 40% recovery tested ? I thought because the 500 GPD was tested at 40% recovery, it helps have a less powerful pump than with a membrane where 500 GPD was tested at 15% recovery (AMI M-T3012A-500...).

4) From your experience, how quick should I regenerate a 10 inch ion exchange resin cartridge at 350 PPM and 22dH hardness?

Have a nice weekend!

 

[Richi888]

Look at flow rate ratings on your carbon filters.

I would want to talk to someone that has done commercial systems @Buckeye Hydro

Yes Im using one of the German brand Carbonit, its sintered activated charcoal with 10 microns at 22L/Min flow, so enough for my system and hopefully enough to get the chlorine out.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

You want a backwashing carbon tank rather than carbon blocks prior to 1000 gpm worth of membranes. We size these for a 2 min ebct with 1240 GAC for chlorine, and use a different (faster) media and a longer ebct for chloramine.

Russ

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

I use 3 water saver membranes. The last I checked I was close to 1:1. I have about 220 gallons is system volume (x2.1, one 6g nano). I keep 100g Ro on hand and 50 salt mix read to go. I can easily refill the 100G in a 3-4 hours. I calculated my max but I don’t recall what it is. I think those are 200 membranes. My pressure is at 85 pounds. I have the auto flush valve, but I think it needs to be adjusted and I can’t find an allen wrench that small. I need to keep the unit on all the time as it splits off before the DI and feeds my sink and ice makers. I think I am wasting WAY more water then I should with the auto flush valve. My goal wasn’t how much output could I max out at, I simply wanted to eliminate as much waste when producing RO as possible while ensure I could refill my reserves in an afternoon. But, this auto flush valve situation needs attention.

There is no such thing as a "water saver" membrane. These are just regular 1812 membranes, plumbed in series (bad idea in most cases by the way).

Auto flush valves do not have an adjustable allen screw, so something is wrong here. Are you referring to a pressure switch instead? Here's the wrench: https://www.buckeyehydro.com/pump-wrench/

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Thanks so much guys, really appreciate your time!
@Buckeye Hydro Yes I was thinking about using it in parallel exactly because of hardness (we have around 350 PPM and quiet high dH). Since I try not to use an ion exchange resin before (havent looked to much into it but with 1000GPD and 350 PPM I think I need to change/regenerate those 10" cartridge every 3 days or so?), I was thinking about using two 500 GPD Axeon TF-3012-500 membranes (40% recovery) with a 1:3 ratio and hope that ratio is enough. If I want 1000 GPD permeat, I need around 4000 GPD feedwater at that 1:3 ratio.


1) Can you recommend a good compact pump for this?

2) Is 3/8 tubes enough for the system or is 1/2 better in order to get those 1000 GPD permeat out?

3) Is there a better membrane out there than the Axeon TF-3012-500 which gives 500 GPD at even more than 40% recovery tested ? I thought because the 500 GPD was tested at 40% recovery, it helps have a less powerful pump than with a membrane where 500 GPD was tested at 15% recovery (AMI M-T3012A-500...).

4) From your experience, how quick should I regenerate a 10 inch ion exchange resin cartridge at 350 PPM and 22dH hardness?

Have a nice weekend!

Functionally you're talking about a 1000 gpd RO system... you are well past a "compact pump." You need a motor and a rotary vein pump, and yes, we can spec that for you.

Typically with a 1000 gpd RO we spec a water softener before the unit (If your hardness measurement is correct, you have 23 gpg of hardness... so don't even think about plumbing membranes in series with that level of hardness. Even w/o plumbing them in series you are going to ruin membranes in short order. You'll be buying replacements frequently. A softener would allow you to go down to something near a 50% recovery (1:1 ratio). If you stick with a 2.5" membrane on softened water we can get you better than a 1:1.

For 4000 gpd feedwater flow (almost 3 gpm) go with 1/2" pipe or better yet 3/4" pipe for the feedwater, and 3/8" will work for the concentrate and permeate.

You'll want flow gauges on the permeate and concentrate, and a needle valve on the concentrate to dial your flow in. If you go with a softener, you can also go with a recycle valve and flow gauge to cut your concentrate flow in half. Well worth it - it will pay for itself in short order.

Although we carry the Axeon 3012 500 gpd https://www.buckeyehydro.com/axeon-3012-ro-membrane-500-gpd/ you might want to consider a 2540 membrane instead, or if you get the water softener plumb three 2521 membranes in series.

Realize of course that because of your cold tap water you'll never get the factory spec production from a membrane if you run it at spec pressure. So if you actually need 1000 gallon in 24 hours, don't build or buy a 1000 gpd RO system. To determine the capacity to shoot for you have to apply a temperature correction factor and then go for something near a 50% capacity factor so that the unit doesn't have to run 24/7 to keep up with demand.

After considering all this... and given that you're not too familiar with the technicalities of RO systems and the related water chemistry and the necessary pretreatment, you are a very good candidate to BUY, rather than build:
1. backwashing carbon tank
2. water softener
3. 1000+ gpd commercial RO

Russ

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

4) From your experience, how quick should I regenerate a 10 inch ion exchange resin cartridge at 350 PPM and 22dH hardness?

Never in a hundred years would I recommend you use 10" refillable DI carts after a 1000 gpd RO unless you have nothing better to do that constantly repack cartridges! We'd put you in a small DI tank.

At 350 ppm and a 98% rejection rate you might hope for permeate under 10 ppm. That's pretty good, but the volume of water you'd be producing would blow through the capacity of a 10" cartridge in less than half a day of production. That's a non starter.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Here's the type of RO configuration in my head. Your system would have three 2521 membranes rather than three 2540's as shown. You'd also have a third flow gauge and second needle valve for the recycle function. You can see the general appearance of the motor and pump in the pic. It also has a feedwater solenoid valve and a low pressure switch to protect the pump.

 

[Richi888]

Functionally you're talking about a 1000 gpd RO system... you are well past a "compact pump." You need a motor and a rotary vein pump, and yes, we can spec that for you.

Typically with a 1000 gpd RO we spec a water softener before the unit (If your hardness measurement is correct, you have 23 gpg of hardness... so don't even think about plumbing membranes in series with that level of hardness. Even w/o plumbing them in series you are going to ruin membranes in short order. You'll be buying replacements frequently. A softener would allow you to go down to something near a 50% recovery (1:1 ratio). If you stick with a 2.5" membrane on softened water we can get you better than a 1:1.

For 4000 gpd feedwater flow (almost 3 gpm) go with 1/2" pipe or better yet 3/4" pipe for the feedwater, and 3/8" will work for the concentrate and permeate.

You'll want flow gauges on the permeate and concentrate, and a needle valve on the concentrate to dial your flow in. If you go with a softener, you can also go with a recycle valve and flow gauge to cut your concentrate flow in half. Well worth it - it will pay for itself in short order.

Although we carry the Axeon 3012 500 gpd https://www.buckeyehydro.com/axeon-3012-ro-membrane-500-gpd/ you might want to consider a 2540 membrane instead, or if you get the water softener plumb three 2521 membranes in series.

Realize of course that because of your cold tap water you'll never get the factory spec production from a membrane if you run it at spec pressure. So if you actually need 1000 gallon in 24 hours, don't build or buy a 1000 gpd RO system. To determine the capacity to shoot for you have to apply a temperature correction factor and then go for something near a 50% capacity factor so that the unit doesn't have to run 24/7 to keep up with demand.

After considering all this... and given that you're not too familiar with the technicalities of RO systems and the related water chemistry and the necessary pretreatment, you are a very good candidate to BUY, rather than build:
1. backwashing carbon tank
2. water softener
3. 1000 gpd commercial RO

Russ

Thanks so much for the effort to write this. Just sent you an email to your shop, can you check please?

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Here's what an auto backwashing carbon tank looks like

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

And a softener. This is a single tank softener - we'd add a lockout switch to this, or spec a twin alternating softener instead:

 

[Richi888]

And a softener. This is a single tank softener - we'd add a lockout switch to this, or spec a twin alternating softener instead:

Thanks, just sent you an email to your shop sir. Might have explained it wrongly. Can also post it here:

Let me explain again what Im trying to accomplish, I think I might have made a mistake in describing, maybe I need much less than a 1000 GPD system but thats up to you to decide now.

Im having severe skin issues worsened by hard water. I tried a simple ion exchanger but my skin also doesnt tolerate the added sodium. Thats why Im planning to build a compact reverse osmosis system for the shower and which I can also carry with me while traveling.
Was testing how much water I need at least per minute in order to take a shower and I've found that 2,6 L/Min (0,69 GPM) is okay. This means the system needs to output 2,6 L/min (0,69 GPM) somehow, more is even better And since I take a shower ones a day for lets say 10 minutes, I only need 26L (6,9 gallons) in total per day. For two persons double.

I said that I need a 1000 GPD permeat water system, because I thought that two 500 GPD membrane will output 1000/24/60=0,694 gallons per minute. So in reality I will never make use of the full 1000 GPD permeat water (only need 6,9 gallons of it per day PLUS the waste water assuming 1:3 ratio) BUT I need the pressure or whatever to accomplish the 0,69 GPM permeat water AS IF its a 1000 GPD system. Thats also why I thought that a simple 10 inch carbon block is enough.


So as mentioned I thought of something like this:
RO system 1 microns Sediment Filter -> 10 microns Carbon filter (22L/Min flow) -> a carbonator motor (Marathon? )with a 165 GPH rotary vane pump (clamp-on) -> 2 membranes -> … -> little compact flow heater

Would this work or still need much bigger system with backwashing carbon tank and softener? Because then its no compact "travel system" anymore. Should look more like this https://www.buckeyehydro.com/residential-ro-system/ but without the tank

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Thanks so much for the effort to write this. Just sent you an email to your shop, can you check please?

Well... now that's a different thing... I replied to your email.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Here's something more portable, but you'd still have the issue of feeding hard water:

You could use a little portable softener tank (something like 6" diameter and 24" tall) that you regenerate manually as needed.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

Why do you need such a big System? 1000 Gallons would do a 20% Water change on a 5,000:Gallons Aquarium, that would be if you do a water change every day. Once a week, would be a 35,000 Gallon Aquarium.