Something is VERY wrong with my fish

[4FordFamily]

You'll need to catch ALL fish and run your display tank fallow for 72 days to be sure it's parasite free. My protocol is to treat the entire fallow time with copper and then run through three tank transfers to be extra safe before being placed back in the display tank.

This is because copper levels are difficult to be sure they're perfect, and I would rather be safe than sorry. Especially if you wish to keep very fragile fish like idols.

Buy a seachem ammonia badge so you can tell when you need to make water changes. I had to do 75% water changes daily for awhile (I didn't have any seeded bio media).

 

[Cleo642]

It must suck trying to catch all the fish to treat them or you can't catch them cause they hide. I think I saw someone that they selling clear nets so it makes it easier. Idk how well that would work anyway.

 

[Cleo642]

You'll need to catch ALL fish and run your display tank fallow for 72 days to be sure it's parasite free. My protocol is to treat the entire fallow time with copper and then run through three tank transfers to be extra safe before being placed back in the display tank.

This is because copper levels are difficult to be sure they're perfect, and I would rather be safe than sorry. Especially if you wish to keep very fragile fish like idols.

Buy a seachem ammonia badge so you can tell when you need to make water changes. I had to do 75% water changes daily for awhile (I didn't have any seeded bio media).

They are so hard to catch with a million places to hide. How did you catch yours? Those suckers are fast too.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

I really don't know what it is anymore. They all have it now...it looks like they have powder sprinkled on them. I got a third fish out and out him QT. The QT tank is only a 20 long, so I don't know how many I could put in there.

 

[Cleo642]

I really don't know what it is anymore. They all have it now...it looks like they have powder sprinkled on them. I got a third fish out and out him QT. The QT tank is only a 20 long, so I don't know how many I could put in there.

That's velvet. Spreads fast.

 

[Humblefish]

I really don't know what it is anymore. They all have it now...it looks like they have powder sprinkled on them. I got a third fish out and out him QT. The QT tank is only a 20 long, so I don't know how many I could put in there.

You just said the magic 4 words - "powder sprinkled on them". That is velvet. You need to move fast! Get them all out of there tonight, into QT and get your copper level up to therapeutic TONIGHT.

 

[Humblefish]

I also highly recommend a FW dip for each fish before you move them into QT (see below). And start looking for any antibiotic you can get your hands on (exs. Maracyn/erythromycin, Kanaplex, Furan-2). IME; fish with velvet almost always develop a secondary bacterial infection from all the tiny bite marks all over their skin.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

 

[4FordFamily]

Yep that's velvet. Take all of your rocks out and remove water until they can't hide or get away. This is how I caught everyone. It's no fun but time is NOT your friend here. They may not make it anyway, but Humblefish is right a dip is definitely your best bet.

If the freshwater dip is performed properly and it kills the fish, the fish was a goner anyway and you just shortened his suffering.

 

[4FordFamily]

Here is an excerpt from another thread somewhat relevant here:

So I had this problem in my angel tank... IMO and IME emperor Angels only do this when they are very stressed and generally only when they have parasites. I lost Angel after Angel after Angel in my angel tank and could not figure out what was going on.

I bought healthy Angels, added them (non qt because I was an idiot) and they would all do this. Fine for 1-2 days, lethargic a day and hiding, dead the next. The emperors would slowly become more and more splotchy over this period as well.

It eventually killed 10 Angels, each time I was sure I "fixed" the problem. Turns out it was an invisible strain of velvet that showed NO classic symptoms outside of what was described. I guess it only attacked the gills. Even the dead fish had zero dusting or anything to identify it as velvet.

Then, I added a chevron when I gave up on Angels, blaming it on collection and shipping, and it was the first fish to show some classic velvet symptoms. I treated everyone with copper and have since kept every Angel I've added since without issue!

Emperor, king/passer, Queen, blue face, rock beauty, potters, flame, and even a moorish idol! All in cupramine with ZERO issues even at .7 PPM.

I have a regal Angel in the same concentration in another tank with another flame and a flame back. No issues whatsoever.

I don't know how you would have gotten it, but sharing nets, corals, inverts, who knows?

Also I know I had this strain for months and didn't know. My hippo tang survived it for months whilst Angels dropped dead. My wrasse were all completely unaffected, wrasse are tough. The hippo did succomb the same time the chevron did unfortunately, but it goes to show you how some strains can affect one group of fish far worse than others.

Most strains of velvet are far more deadly and to nearly all fish.

Now that tank also has an Achilles tang and yellow belly hippo that were added with the Angels without issue.

The dollar per gallon sale has to be going on somewhere still. Buy a bigger tank or just be prepared to change 90% of the water daily until everything catches up. Seachem ammonia badge is your friend. Daily water changes (with redose of copper) is your friend.

 

[Humblefish]

After I've completed experimentation for my 10 day QT protocol and published my findings, velvet is next on my radar. This disease has frustrated the hell out of me. I will find a "salvage protocol" for treating fish badly infested with velvet.

Below is my theory, but has never been fully tested. I'm pretty sure I will be tweaking it soon.

- Give an infected specimen a 5 min FW dip, adding Methylene Blue at double the recommended dosage. I will use RODI water for the dip, temp & pH matching the water the fish is coming from. You can squirt a little freshly mixed SW into the dip just before the fish goes in, to help bring the pH up. I will also aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip.

- Following the FW dip, the fish will immediately get a formalin bath (using Formalin-MS) for 30-45 mins. The bath will be done in a large GLASS bowl or container, using freshly mixed SW aerated heavily for at least 30 minutes prior. SG/temp matched and aeration running heavily throughout the duration of the bath. The fish should be placed in a premixed bath solution. DO NOT add more formalin after the fish is already in the bath.

- Following the bath, the fish will be placed in a QT pre-dosed with Chloroquine phosphate (CP) at a rate of 60mg/gal. Provide heavy gas exchange in this QT by pointing a powerhead or two towards the surface. Fish will be treated with CP for 2 weeks.

- If a secondary bacterial infection arises (very common in fish with velvet), Furan-2 may be used. Also, the powder form of metronidazole and praziquantel may be used in conjunction with CP, if needed.

- It is imperative that the temp remains constant every step of the way. From the tank the fish is coming from, to the CP QT he ultimately goes into. And every step in-between. It is also important that SG matches; from the tank the fish is coming from, to the formalin bath water, to the CP QT. Ensuring this and providing plenty of O2 reduces stress on the fish during this traumatic process he has to go thru.

 

[4FordFamily]

I know we have chatted privately about your moorish issue, but not only is this why you had more trouble than most (although that's a borderline impossible fish to keep anyhow) but I would venture to guess your cheap idols you kept buying are what brought this to your tank. I've heard idols and Angels are very common carriers for some reason.

I think keeping idols in cupramine may work to your benefit because you know they're ich and velvet free. Mine has been in cupramine now for a total of 3.5-4 months (due to the mishap I mentioned) and he's kicking butt and taking names.

Cupramine is either much safer than people make it out to be or I am one lucky SOG

 

[Cleo642]

I know we have chatted privately about your moorish issue, but not only is this why you had more trouble than most (although that's a borderline impossible fish to keep anyhow) but I would venture to guess your cheap idols you kept buying are what brought this to your tank. I've heard idols and Angels are very common carriers for some reason.

I think keeping idols in cupramine may work to your benefit because you know they're ich and velvet free. Mine has been in cupramine now for a total of 3.5-4 months (due to the mishap I mentioned) and he's kicking butt and taking names.

Cupramine is either much safer than people make it out to be or I am one lucky SOG

Do you keep your fish in copper or cupramine all the time? Or just in quarantine?
If in the main tank, how do inverts corals react?
Do you have corals? I never hear you speak of any.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

I know we have chatted privately about your moorish issue, but not only is this why you had more trouble than most (although that's a borderline impossible fish to keep anyhow) but I would venture to guess your cheap idols you kept buying are what brought this to your tank. I've heard idols and Angels are very common carriers for some reason.

I think keeping idols in cupramine may work to your benefit because you know they're ich and velvet free. Mine has been in cupramine now for a total of 3.5-4 months (due to the mishap I mentioned) and he's kicking butt and taking names.

Cupramine is either much safer than people make it out to be or I am one lucky SOG

I never bought any cheap idols. I was going to as I mentioned to you. They were by no means cheap.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

You just said the magic 4 words - "powder sprinkled on them". That is velvet. You need to move fast! Get them all out of there tonight, into QT and get your copper level up to therapeutic TONIGHT.

This picture is not mine, but this is about how big the spots are. This fish is said to have Ich.

 

[Cleo642]

What's the update? How are they doing?

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Here they are in QT..the three I could get. The tang's coloring is because I put the light on after it was dark for awhile. In the first pic, if you look at the tang's front left fin, you can see some spots. These are what i was talking about. You can also see the cloudiness in his eyes. The snow bass has the exact same thing. The wrasse is stuffed behind the heater and I could get one of him.

 

[NeuroticAquatics]

Fingers crossed for you. MV is not fun. I've had it twice over the years and it wiped both tanks within about a week.

 

[Humblefish]

This picture is not mine, but this is about how big the spots are. This fish is said to have Ich.

At the very least it's ich. Either way, copper treats both ich & velvet so you are doing what you can to treat both diseases. But losing 5 fish over a period of one week strongly suggests velvet over ich. I don't think your losses were going to stop until you took this drastic measure. So kudos for doing the right thing here.

 

[Cleo642]

Here they are in QT..the three I could get. The tang's coloring is because I put the light on after it was dark for awhile. In the first pic, if you look at the tang's front left fin, you can see some spots. These are what i was talking about. You can also see the cloudiness in his eyes. The snow bass has the exact same thing. The wrasse is stuffed behind the heater and I could get one of him.

Just keep us updated. Let's see how things go tomorrow and so forth. I hope they get better. Let the main tank run fallow,if you can, for 72 days.

 

[4FordFamily]

Do you keep your fish in copper or cupramine all the time? Or just in quarantine?
If in the main tank, how do inverts corals react?
Do you have corals? I never hear you speak of any.

No just while another tank ran fallow, and again since I am a moron and cross contaminated.

I have lots of corals,the tanks with cupramine have no inverts or corals until I remove the cupramine again.

The DT that has cupramine is not a reef tank, it has some reef (rbta, star polyps, leathers, a couple shrooms) that is in a separate tank until copper removed as I said