Struggling to maintain Alkalinity and calcium

[CjAmaryllis]

So I've been dosing with reef fusion 1 and 2, at rh max it recommends most days. I try to do alk and ca at different times of day, in different parts of the tank. There is always precipitation. For weeks, I noticed both calcium and Alkalinity were dropping more and more, even with dosing. I only have like 6 small softies and LPS corals rn so I can't imagine they use a lot. I also have a decent amount of red ogo. It got to the point where calcium was around 320 and Alkalinity around 7 (started around 450 and 9 dkh before dosing). So I switched to using just part 1 and baking soda. I tested after I dosed the first day, going from 7 to 8, and dosed from 8 to 8.5 over the next two days, with no precipitation. Then, I decided to go to back to the two part system because it seemed like I should (idk why), and got a lot more precipitation. I tested today (a week from the initial testing) and Alkalinity is 6!! I tested with two different kits to verify. Calcium is 420, which is okay. Magnesium is 1300, pH is 8.3, nitrates are around 2-5. What is happening here? Obviously I know the alk swinging so much is not good. How do I proceed? Why so much precipitation with the 2 part, but not with the baking soda?

Thanks all!

 

[Cichlid Dad]

So I've been dosing with reef fusion 1 and 2, at rh max it recommends most days. I try to do alk and ca at different times of day, in different parts of the tank. There is always precipitation. For weeks, I noticed both calcium and Alkalinity were dropping more and more, even with dosing. I only have like 6 small softies and LPS corals rn so I can't imagine they use a lot. I also have a decent amount of red ogo. It got to the point where calcium was around 320 and Alkalinity around 7 (started around 450 and 9 dkh before dosing). So I switched to using just part 1 and baking soda. I tested after I dosed the first day, going from 7 to 8, and dosed from 8 to 8.5 over the next two days, with no precipitation. Then, I decided to go to back to the two part system because it seemed like I should (idk why), and got a lot more precipitation. I tested today (a week from the initial testing) and Alkalinity is 6!! I tested with two different kits to verify. Calcium is 420, which is okay. Magnesium is 1300, pH is 8.3, nitrates are around 2-5. What is happening here? Obviously I know the alk swinging so much is not good. How do I proceed? Why so much precipitation with the 2 part, but not with the baking soda?

Thanks all!

What size tank?

 

[CjAmaryllis]

What size tank?

40 gal

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Have you tried just doing water changes to control the big Three?

 

[Miami Reef]

Making large corrective doses with sodium carbonate (soda ash) is going to risk precipitation, especially if the flow is low, pH gets too high, or if magnesium or phosphate is low.

The solution in this case is to switch to sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). You don’t need to switch to soda ash; baking soda can work indefinitely.

If you wanted to switch to soda ash for the pH boost, you can do so after 1 week, and spread the dose with a dosing pump thereafter.

Happy reefing!

 

[CjAmaryllis]

Have you tried just doing water changes to control the big Three?

How big of a water change would that have to be every week? I usually do a 10-20% every three weeks. My nitrates get sucked up pretty quick, even with heavy feeding, so I haven't changed water as often.

 

[Miami Reef]

How big of a water change would that have to be every week? I usually do a 10-20% every three weeks. My nitrates get sucked up pretty quick, even with heavy feeding, so I haven't changed water as often.

Water changes are not effective for maintaining alkalinity. You would require very frequent amounts.

Dosing is cheaper and much less time consuming.

 

[CjAmaryllis]

Making large corrective doses with sodium carbonate (soda ash) is going to risk precipitation, especially if the flow is low, pH gets too high, or if magnesium or phosphate is low.

The solution in this case is to switch to sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). You don’t need to switch to soda ash; baking soda can work indefinitely.

If you wanted to switch to soda ash for the pH boost, you can do so after 1 week, and spread the dose with a dosing pump thereafter.

Happy reefing

Hello! Is Reef fusion 2 soda Ash? I got precipitation with any dose, strangely, but not any with baking soda (I did my large corrective dose with baking soda.

I'm happy with my pH, so I will probably stick with the baking soda. I read something somewhere that using baking soda is bad long term, so I wasn't sure!

 

[CjAmaryllis]

Water changes are not effective for maintaining alkalinity. You would require very frequent amounts.

Dosing is cheaper and much less time consuming.

Oh good. The thought of doing heavy water changes every week sounds like no fun.

 

[Reefering1]

What fo you have for demand and how much are you dosing? Pic of tank...

 

[Miami Reef]

I read something somewhere that using baking soda is bad long term, so I wasn't sure!

That couldn’t be further from the truth. Besides for the slight pH lowering effect, it is equivalent to soda ash when it comes to salinity and ionic balance. As long as you’re happy with your pH, I’d stick with it.

You can always try soda ash again, but you would need a dosing pump to spread the dose throughout the day.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Water changes are not effective for maintaining alkalinity. You would require very frequent amounts.

Dosing is cheaper and much less time consuming.

Hello, he has 6 small frags mostly soft coral. In my experience although not close to your experience, water change of 20% every 2 weeks would handle the load . Being a 40 gallon system, that would be two 5 gallon buckets. I do 30 gallon water changes on my system every two weeks with no issues. What am I missing?

 

[Miami Reef]

Hello, he has 6 small frags mostly soft coral. In my experience although not close to your experience, water change of 20% every 2 weeks would handle the load . Being a 40 gallon system, that would be two 5 gallon bucket buckets. I do 30 gallon water changes on my system every two weeks with no issues. What am I missing?

Water changes are great for many reasons, but for simply maintaining alkalinity is not a wise choice. It is much more difficult to make RO/DI water and buying expensive salt than it is for adding some arm and hammer baking soda to a tank. There is also no harm in adding carbonate and bicarbonate to a tank. That’s how most of us do it.

I believe OP should do occasional water changes, definitely, but for the sole sake of maintaining alkalinity? I wouldn’t.

 

[Miami Reef]

Here are some math examples and a blurb about how much water changes are needed to maintain alkalinity vs dosing them:

“In the previous section I showed that normal water changes of up to 30% per month cannot maintain calcium and alkalinity in reef aquaria. But at some point, large enough water changes can do so. What volume of water change is necessary to maintain calcium and alkalinity in reef aquaria? In a tiny aquarium, 3 gallons for example, large daily water changes might be acceptable. How large is required? Figure 23 shows the drop in alkalinity for a low demand aquarium changing 0%, 5%, 10%, 15% and 30% of the water EVERY DAY. In that case, it appears to require between 10% and 30% of the total water volume to be changed every day to maintain suitable alkalinity. Figure 24 shows similar data for a higher demand aquarium (1 meq/L alkalinity per day). In this case, it takes close to a 50% water change each day to maintain suitable alkalinity. Similar data are obtained for calcium (not shown), where 30% and 50% daily water changes in a high demand aquarium (24 ppm calcium per day) stabilize at 364 and 396 ppm calcium, respectively. So, while changing 50% per day is really out of the question for any normal to large reef aquarium without an inlet directly from the ocean or a large seawater well, a 3-gallon nanoreef aquarium attached to a very slow continuous pump could maintain adequate calcium and alkalinity by replacing 1.5 gallons each day.”

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php#:~:text=In%20this%20case%2C%20it%20takes,and%20396%20ppm%20calcium%2C%20respectively.

Here are cost differences between dosing and changing water for alkalinity: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...in-maintaining-calcium-and-alkalinity.933576/


From the link above:

“
Assuming the salt mix has 12 dKH as Red Sea claims, then it takes the following:

7-8 dKH, 20% change, 20 gallons needed, $8.00 cost

7-9 dKH, 40% change, 40 gallons needed, $16.00 cost

7-10 dKH, 60% change, 60 gallons needed, $24.00 cost

Doing a similar calculation for the ESV, we find that a 1 dKH boost takes 48.3 mL. That gives use these results:


7-8 dKH, 48.3 mL, $0.42 cost
7-9 dKH, 96.6 mL, $0.85 cost
7-10 dKH, 144.9 mL, $1.27 cost

We can see from these calculations that the cost of maintaining alk in these two ways is 19 times higher when accomplishing it by water change.”

 

[Reefering1]

Hello, he has 6 small frags mostly soft coral. In my experience although not close to your experience, water change of 20% every 2 weeks would handle the load . Being a 40 gallon system, that would be two 5 gallon buckets. I do 30 gallon water changes on my system every two weeks with no issues. What am I missing?

Here are some math examples and a blurb about how much water changes are needed to maintain alkalinity vs dosing them:

“In the previous section I showed that normal water changes of up to 30% per month cannot maintain calcium and alkalinity in reef aquaria. But at some point, large enough water changes can do so. What volume of water change is necessary to maintain calcium and alkalinity in reef aquaria? In a tiny aquarium, 3 gallons for example, large daily water changes might be acceptable. How large is required? Figure 23 shows the drop in alkalinity for a low demand aquarium changing 0%, 5%, 10%, 15% and 30% of the water EVERY DAY. In that case, it appears to require between 10% and 30% of the total water volume to be changed every day to maintain suitable alkalinity. Figure 24 shows similar data for a higher demand aquarium (1 meq/L alkalinity per day). In this case, it takes close to a 50% water change each day to maintain suitable alkalinity. Similar data are obtained for calcium (not shown), where 30% and 50% daily water changes in a high demand aquarium (24 ppm calcium per day) stabilize at 364 and 396 ppm calcium, respectively. So, while changing 50% per day is really out of the question for any normal to large reef aquarium without an inlet directly from the ocean or a large seawater well, a 3-gallon nanoreef aquarium attached to a very slow continuous pump could maintain adequate calcium and alkalinity by replacing 1.5 gallons each day.”

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php#:~:text=In%20this%20case%2C%20it%20takes,and%20396%20ppm%20calcium%2C%20respectively.

Here are cost differences between dosing and changing water for alkalinity: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...in-maintaining-calcium-and-alkalinity.933576/


From the link above:

“
Assuming the salt mix has 12 dKH as Red Sea claims, then it takes the following:

7-8 dKH, 20% change, 20 gallons needed, $8.00 cost

7-9 dKH, 40% change, 40 gallons needed, $16.00 cost

7-10 dKH, 60% change, 60 gallons needed, $24.00 cost

Doing a similar calculation for the ESV, we find that a 1 dKH boost takes 48.3 mL. That gives use these results:


7-8 dKH, 48.3 mL, $0.42 cost
7-9 dKH, 96.6 mL, $0.85 cost
7-10 dKH, 144.9 mL, $1.27 cost

We can see from these calculations that the cost of maintaining alk in these two ways is 19 times higher when accomplishing it by water change.”

Both valid points. I may be wrong, but i assume anyone dosing fusion 1&2 as per"max dose" may not be very experienced. Couple that with low demand and small tank, it may be easiest to change water to stay in range. Not the cheapest but definitely easier to correct and maintain balance while practicing testing and dosing. Not like it's a tank full of acros that consume fast and may be bothered by w/c parameters fluctuations

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Both valid points. I may be wrong, but i assume anyone dosing fusion 1&2 as per"max dose" may not be very experienced. Couple that with low demand and small tank, it may be easiest to change water to stay in range. Not the cheapest but definitely easier to correct and maintain balance while practicing testing and dosing. Not like it's a tank full of acros that consume fast and may be bothered by w/c parameters fluctuations

That was my point, make it easy on him while he learned

 

[Reefering1]

That was my point, make it easy on him while he learned

Exactly. master testing, getting consistent numbers you can trust, then dial it in and smooth out the swing.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

I think the issue is we forget what it is like to having no idea about maintaining parameters. There is no guidelines here on how to do it . Where even to get the information to maintain the parameters. How to figure out what amount of what is needed and what the best way to go about it. I see exactly the same problem happening again just with another product. Adding a calcium and alk booster based on the directions on a bottle will only get you in trouble. To the OP, first step is to figure out what your tank demand is. Is it .1 dkh per day? .7? Same with calcium. Test every day . With in a week you will know the demand of your tank. Then find a method for replacing cal AKC and mag that is predictable, measurable. There are reef calculators that will tell you exactly what is needed to peg a dkh, cal or mag level in your tank. First step is to know what it using per day.

 

[Reefering1]

And I'll add... at first, when you test, test 3 times. Do this, before adjusting or dosing, until you get consistent results you can trust

 

[Miami Reef]

Not the cheapest but definitely easier to correct and maintain balance while practicing testing and dosing.

What better time to start practicing dosing and testing now, before you invest in corals?

You will need to test regardless of whether you supply alk via water changes vs alkalinity solutions.

There are also very easy calculators to find the exact dosing amounts per system gallons: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/reef-calculator/alkalinity-calculator-reef

Testing and dosing is not as difficult as you make it out to be IMO. I think measuring, mixing, and changing large volumes of water is MUCH more laborious.

Of course, it’s the OP’s decision at the end, But let’s not make him feel powerless to testing and dosing. He can do it. He’s capable.