This thread is for the general discussion of the Article Sustainability in the Aquarium Trade, Longevity and Animal Costs. Please add to the discussion here.
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I only wish you have addressed the invertebrates as well. I've read from reputable sources (unless I misunderstood which is possible) that Blue Linckias account for 3% of all wild collected invertebrates. It's safe to say their survival is absolutely terrible, yet they continue to be collected in enormous numbers despite the mortality rate because they aren't threatened. When one dies after a week (this is speculation since I haven't run a poll and supported by the collection rate), a new one takes its place. I doubt it does better sadly.
Jay, in your opinion, why do people buy some of these notoriously difficult to keep inverts and fish and just replace them after they die after a few weeks? I'm not trying to start any ethical argument or anything similar but it would seem obvious that a second isn't going to fare much better rifght after the first dies? Do you think they just assume it was bad luck? I feel like certain species such as those which are incredibly difficult to maintain should be the more expensive ones...I agree that invertebrates got left out. Mostly, that was due to the data I had on hand. I did list some invertebrates to avoid, in this article:
MARINE FISH AND INVERTEBRATES TO AVOID
Knowing which species have extra challenges helps home aquarists avoid heartbreak down the road. The following are some species that may pose problems for you, despite the level of care that you offer them.www.reef2reef.com
Linkia, red fromia and red serpent stars all have very poor survivorship in aquariums.
Jay
Jay, in your opinion, why do people buy some of these notoriously difficult to keep inverts and fish and just replace them after they die after a few weeks? I'm not trying to start any ethical argument or anything similar but it would seem obvious that a second isn't going to fare much better rifght after the first dies? Do you think they just assume it was bad luck? I feel like certain species such as those which are incredibly difficult to maintain should be the more expensive ones...
I'd absolutely agree with what you're saying about how fish are treated in SE Asia since I live here. I don't agree at all with any totutuous practices such as you'll encounter in some areas such as eating live octopus. However, although I'm sure you're worldly enough to understand, fish for most people on this side of the world are just food, nothing more, nothing less. I apologize I'm getting away from the discussion there though. Would you ever propose a price hike on some of these animals with extremely high mortality rates to discourage a portion of I'll purchases that result simply from them being cheap?IMO - in the US, people buy these animals out of ignorance, not understanding that they will die. Once they die, these people rarely buy them again. Do you know, the impression I get is that in some cultures in SE Asia, the fish can be considered much like cut flowers - buy some and then replace them when they die. I ran into this mentality when I was buying deep sea creatures from a collector in Japan - they would sell stalked crinoids that looked really cool for a month or so, then always died, and they knew that they would always die....but sold them to us anyway.
Sometimes - the presence of these animals is dictated by the supply chain: it is pretty common for exporters to run substitutions on an order. They often fill in with nudibranchs, coral eating butterflies, etc. that the importer didn't order, but they get sold to them anyway. Then, the importer doesn't want to get stuck with them, so they sell them to a fish store, and then they are purchased by the unwitting consumer.
Jay
I'd absolutely agree with what you're saying about how fish are treated in SE Asia since I live here. I don't agree at all with any totutuous practices such as you'll encounter in some areas such as eating live octopus. However, although I'm sure you're worldly enough to understand, fish for most people on this side of the world are just food, nothing more, nothing less. I apologize I'm getting away from the discussion there though. Would you ever propose a price hike on some of these animals with extremely high mortality rates to discourage a portion of I'll purchases that result simply from them being cheap?
I'll look into that foundation since I'm only a short flight away! It would be interesting to see them work together with the fishermen to better their livelihoods. I have a friend down there and he's told me about the wages.Not a price hike to keep people from buying a fish, but i have long supported paying more to collectors for not using cyanide, and to have better handling practices. Trouble is, when you offer to pay more for good quality fish, the money doesn't funnel back to the collectors, the middleman keeps it.
The finances work out - just making up some rough numbers here - right now, a diver is paid 30 cents for a cyanide caught pygmy angelfish. That fish sells for $50 in the US. If you paid a diver $5 for the same fish to be caught in nets, it would sell for about $75 US, but would have half the mortality rate.
The Lini Foundation in Indonesia is trying to get divers more money for good fish by working with them in the source country.
Jay
Sometimes - the presence of these animals is dictated by the supply chain: it is pretty common for exporters to run substitutions on an order. They often fill in with nudibranchs, coral eating butterflies, etc. that the importer didn't order, but they get sold to them anyway. Then, the importer doesn't want to get stuck with them, so they sell them to a fish store, and then they are purchased by the unwitting consumer.
Jay
I can’t speak about Monsoon Aquatics, but Cairns Marine incurs huge costs to get corals - they have boats that go out to the Coral Sea to get corals, for a week or so per trip. Then, they have to pay first world wages and air cargo from Australia is very costly. I don’t think there is much price gouging going on, but just my opinion.@Jay Hemdal I'm curious about something else as well...why in your experience are practically all corals marked with an Australian stamp a great deal more expensive? I e wondered that for a while and even looked into the financial reports and couldn't find a reason...of course the divers and boats cost more but as I remember not only do prices rise as more corals are imported from Australia, but they continue to increase profits y/y if I remember correctly. It seems more like a marketing tactic than anything due to the GBR being located there despite the Coral Triangle being 10x more diverse.
There is some evidence of mislabeling though - to cash in on this. For example, dealers calling SE Asian tuskfish as “Australian” in order to boost the price - could that happen with corals as well?
Jay
Not sure this document really says much. Though sustainability has also been a major concern to me and one of the reasons that I'm still dreaming about a tank rather than owning. Been out of the hobby for 20 years. Would love to get back in but the dino plague, sustainability, etc. keep me studying and on the sidelines. It's all so much more beautiful when I see it in the ocean.This thread is for the general discussion of the Article Sustainability in the Aquarium Trade, Longevity and Animal Costs. Please add to the discussion here.
Not sure this document really says much. Though sustainability has also been a major concern to me and one of the reasons that I'm still dreaming about a tank rather than owning. Been out of the hobby for 20 years. Would love to get back in but the dino plague, sustainability, etc. keep me studying and on the sidelines. It's all so much more beautiful when I see it in the ocean.