The difference between ich & velvet

[deedubz]

I'd still recommend an observation period to get your fish used to your feeding/lighting schedule. Somewhere to recoup from shipping that isn't with (insert amount of fish in your dt) harassing him/her the moment they leave the bag.

 

[deedubz]

I guess I can't say much.. I didn't qt a handful of snails/crabs and got velvet..

 

[Sashaka]

People will be fine waiting I'm sure!

You hear that Humblefish? We'll wait!

 

[Sashaka]

I'd still recommend an observation period to get your fish used to your feeding/lighting schedule. Somewhere to recoup from shipping that isn't with (insert amount of fish in your dt) harassing him/her the moment they leave the bag.

That's the least I can do...for healthy fish from Humblefish! ;Woot

 

[Humblefish]

I guess I can't say much.. I didn't qt a handful of snails/crabs and got velvet..

I’m about a week away from placing my first wholesale order, but you just made an excellent point. Unless folks start embracing the concept of QTing their corals/inverts, buying disease-free fish from me is pointless. This explains in more detail: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-to-quarantine-coral-and-inverts.228/

 

[deedubz]

I’m about a week away from placing my first wholesale order, but you just made an excellent point. Unless folks start embracing the concept of QTing their corals/inverts, buying disease-free fish from me is pointless. This explains in more detail: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-to-quarantine-coral-and-inverts.228/

No kidding. Certainly learned my lesson.

Didn't realize it was that close to happening. Congrats man! I have a feeling you'll be busy for a while

 

[Sashaka]

 

[Sashaka]

Unless folks start embracing the concept of QTing their corals/inverts, buying disease-free fish from me is pointless.

Nothing wet will go in my MD without quarantining once I get it pathogen free . I've learned my lesson! I bought a 13 gal Fluval Evo all in one aquarium to house new inverts, pods, chaeto, corals, whatever I need to observe in a separate tank for a month or two. The Evo's been running since February. It already houses all the snails from the 180 gal, some coral skeletons I want to keep cycled until I can put them back in the 180gal, and some Chaeto full of pods - as well as one mini brittle star I was able to rescue before nuking all my rock from the 180gal. The pods are already breeding! Yeah!

This forum is full of people who have "learned the hard way" the need to quarantine even snails. I hope newbies to saltwater read the many posts from people sweating to keep their saltwater fish alive after trusting that the fish, snail, Chaeto, etc., that they're putting in their tank or sump is pathogen free. I hope at least a few will learn the "easy way" and take heed of our trials to avoid our heartache.

 

[1979fishgeek]

I’m so glad this post is here! Is this Velvet or Ich?
I have tried three weeks of Polyplab Medic and then removed all fish for hyposalinity in QT. My reef tanks now fallow but these guys are now worse particularly my Tangs! I’ve just purchased Seachem Cupramine (and Stability) feeling gutted!

 

[HotRocks]

I’m so glad this post is here! Is this Velvet or Ich?
I have tried three weeks of Polyplab Medic and then removed all fish for hyposalinity in QT. My reef tanks now fallow but these guys are now worse particularly my Tangs! I’ve just purchased Seachem Cupramine (and Stability) feeling gutted!

Definitely velvet, I would start dosing your cupramine asap. Dose small amounts frequently, over the next 24-48 hours until you reach the therapudic level. The sooner the better.

 

[1979fishgeek]

Definitely velvet, I would start dosing your cupramine asap. Dose small amounts frequently, over the next 24-48 hours until you reach the therapudic level. The sooner the better.

Thank you, started dosing. Absolutely gutted this is the first time I’ve come across velvet I always imagined it was more golden coloured, so just goes to show you never stop learning. Appreciate how fast you replied. Thank you.

 

[HotRocks]

Thank you, started dosing. Absolutely gutted this is the first time I’ve come across velvet I always imagined it was more golden coloured, so just goes to show you never stop learning. Appreciate how fast you replied. Thank you.

No problem, time is of the essence for sure. How many gallons is your QT? It's textbook velvet unfortunately.

 

[1979fishgeek]

No problem, time is of the essence for sure. How many gallons is your QT? It's textbook velvet unfortunately.

300l has to be big as the fish are large, dinner plate sized Desjardinni who has only a few specs, Powder Blue Tang around 8 inches, Mata Tang 10 inches, two Mimic Tangs about 7 inches. I also have Melanurus, Sixline, Leopard Wrasses, 22 Bangaii Cardinal, several Chromis, sported Mandarin pair and a Swallow Tail Angel but they are showing no symptoms only the Tangs. That’s why my QT has to be so large, they came out a 1200l tank. I’m worried about ammonia spikes so a lot of the liverock and sump media will have to stay through the treatment and then will use it all in a smaller permanent QT.

Have a ammonia alert badge, I’m going to dose stability and I have Prime but I had read Prime and Cupramine can’t mix.. ???

 

[HotRocks]

300l has to be big as the fish are large, dinner plate sized Desjardinni who has only a few specs, Powder Blue Tang around 8 inches, Mata Tang 10 inches, two Mimic Tangs about 7 inches. I also have Melanurus, Sixline, Leopard Wrasses, 22 Bangaii Cardinal, several Chromis, sported Mandarin pair and a Swallow Tail Angel but they are showing no symptoms only the Tangs. That’s why my QT has to be so large, they came out a 1200l tank. I’m worried about ammonia spikes so a lot of the liverock and sump media will have to stay through the treatment and then will use it all in a smaller permanent QT.

Have a ammonia alert badge, I’m going to dose stability and I have Prime but I had read Prime and Cupramine can’t mix.. ???

Correct you can't mix prime with copper (not familiar with stability). The only thing I would add would be bacteria in a bottle like Dr Tims, or biospiria. If you have seeded media from your DT, you should be fine. Just monitor the badge, I always keep water in a brute can mixed and ready for an emergency WC. I would just dose cupramine every couple hrs. Divided into even amounts or whatever your schedule allows. I would attempt to be at the theraputic level by mid-end of day tomorrow

 

[Big G]

300l has to be big as the fish are large, dinner plate sized Desjardinni who has only a few specs, Powder Blue Tang around 8 inches, Mata Tang 10 inches, two Mimic Tangs about 7 inches. I also have Melanurus, Sixline, Leopard Wrasses, 22 Bangaii Cardinal, several Chromis, sported Mandarin pair and a Swallow Tail Angel but they are showing no symptoms only the Tangs. That’s why my QT has to be so large, they came out a 1200l tank. I’m worried about ammonia spikes so a lot of the liverock and sump media will have to stay through the treatment and then will use it all in a smaller permanent QT.

Have a ammonia alert badge, I’m going to dose stability and I have Prime but I had read Prime and Cupramine can’t mix.. ???

Since you are using Seachem's Cupramine, you can use Seachem's ammonia test kit. It will work with their ionic copper. It does two tests: total ammonia and free ammonia. The only one you need to pay heed to is the "Free ammonia" that's the deadly form for your fish.

 

[1979fishgeek]

Thanks so much for your help. Have the test kit and also Seachem Cuprisorb for afterwards. Really appreciate your help.

 

[Big G]

Seachem Cuprisorb for afterwards

Huge fan of Cuprisorb. I like how you can easily and cheaply recharge the media and use it again and again. It's unusual in that sense. Most manufacturers seem bent on squeezing every bit of gold from your pocket.

 

[Big G]

Do you have a broad spectrum antibiotic on hand? It's somewhat common for fish being treated for ich/velvet with copper to develop a bacterial infection. Easy to do with so many parasite insertion points all over their skin. Here's Humblefish's emergency treatment protocol. I've highlighted the areas of concern to bacterial infections.

Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease

I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.

In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas the tangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:

The short version:

• 5 minute freshwater dip
• Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

1. Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
2. Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

• After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
• While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
• Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.

 

[1979fishgeek]

Do you have a broad spectrum antibiotic on hand? It's somewhat common for fish being treated for ich/velvet with copper to develop a bacterial infection. Easy to do with so many parasite insertion points all over their skin. Here's Humblefish's emergency treatment protocol. I've highlighted the areas of concern to bacterial infections.

Emergency Treatment for Marine Velvet Disease

I recently acquired 3 fish - Longnose Butterfly, Kole Tang, Naso Tang - with velvet. None showed visible physical symptoms right away, but they all came from a tank where velvet was known to be present so I just patiently waited. Before & after pictures will follow immediately after this write-up.

In short, the Butterflyfish didn’t make it; however the two tangs did. The only difference in their treatment was I used formalin (with Methylene Blue) on the butterfly in a bath solution, whereas the tangs got acriflavine (with NO Methylene Blue). It’s also worth noting that the butterfly & Kole Tang showed symptoms the worst, whereas the Naso only had moderate visible symptoms. Tangs are also generally considered hardier than butterflyfish, so there’s that factor to consider as well. Anyway, here is the treatment I used on them:

The short version:

• 5 minute freshwater dip
• Immediately afterwards, perform a chemical bath (in saltwater matching SG/temp the fish came from). You have two options:

1. Acriflavine (preferred) - Do the bath for 75-90 minutes, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain acriflavine: Acriflavine-MS and Ruby Reef Rally. DO NOT mix acriflavine with any other chemicals.
2. Formalin - Do the bath for 30-60 minutes max, but remove the fish immediately at the first sign of distress. Aerate heavily both before & during the bath, and temperature control the water. The following products contain formalin: Formalin-MS, Quick Cure, Aquarium Solutions Ich-X, Kordon Rid-Ich Plus. Use protection (rubber gloves, face mask, eye protection, etc.) whenever handling formalin as it is a known carcinogen! However, you can add Methylene Blue to the formalin bath (1 capful per 2-3 gallons of bath water.)

• After the bath, place the fish in a QT pre-dosed at 80mg/gal using Chloroquine phosphate. In theory, copper (exs. Cupramine, Coppersafe, Copper Power) should work just as well as CP. However, due to how fast velvet can reproduce you don’t have the luxury of slowly ramping up the copper level as is normally advised. Therefore, the fish needs to be placed in a QT with copper already at minimum therapeutic levels. This is the advantage CP has over copper in this particular situation.
• While in QT, use a wide spectrum antibiotic (exs. Seachem Kanaplex, Furan-2) for the first week to ward off any possible bacterial infections. Secondary bacterial infections are very common in fish with preexisting parasitic infestations such as velvet.
• Keep the fish in CP or copper (at therapeutic levels) for one month. However, you can transfer the fish into a non-medicated holding tank for observation after just two weeks (explained below). DO NOT lower the CP or copper level before transferring.

I’ll try and get my hands on antibiotics but I’m in the uk so it’s very difficult if not impossible to purchase them without a prescription. Thanks for that post it was really informative!

 

[Humblefish]

I’ll try and get my hands on antibiotics but I’m in the uk so it’s very difficult if not impossible to purchase them without a prescription. Thanks for that post it was really informative!

Go to the chemist and try to get one/some of the generics listed here: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html