Just a tip, if you are not going to qt, it is best to get the guppies or mollies from the freshwater section and acclimate them yourself. This way there is no risk to transfer disease. If you get from the marine section already acclimated, they can be a vehicle for the transfer of disease.
The "wait, isn't that a freshwater fish" club.
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OP
OP
Tired
2500 Club Member
Forgot I had this thread going.
One of the fish died while I was on vacation, crammed under a small flowerpot so the person I had feeding them didn't see, and took a bunch of others with it. That is one potential tricky spot here- most of the beneficial bacteria doesn't survive the acclimation. With some ulva in the tank and a relatively small number of guppies, it works fine, but you do run the risk of a death causing a cascade of problems. Note to self: don't do this when there's a vacation in the works.
I changed acclimation tactics after some reading. Instead of very slow acclimation all the way, I went with multiple stages, 0.005-0.008ppm at a time, drip-acclimated. I wound up not doing any acclimation for awhile due to my DT having leaked, so they stayed at brackish for awhile before continuing on.
The survivors of the ammonia thing were four Petsmart guppies, and three endlers (well- endler hybrids) that appear to be of varying content. Of those, one guppy and one endler looked consistently uncomfortable in the ~1.019 acclimation stage, so I dropped them back down to about 1.008. That can actually be done instantly- just scoop them and drop them into the lesser salinity.
On acclimation to full marine salinity, one guppy looked uncomfortable enough that I took it out after a few minutes. Another guppy seemed alright for a couple days, then started looking uncomfortable, and was also removed.
See the clamped fins and lowered tail on the white, compared to the yellow? The white one looked particularly interesting, so it was a shame to have to remove it, but it clearly wasn't feeling well enough for me to feel comfortable keeping it in.
I gave the dropouts a few days in brackish, then quickly cup-acclimated them to freshwater, and they're all acting normal and happy. They'll go into a 10gal freshwater tank to act as fertilizer production for some houseplant cuttings.
In short, I'm left with one Petsmart fancy guppy, and two non-purebred endlers. I'm reading that, although a lot of the issues with fancy guppy immune systems are likely due to being raised in near-sterile tanks for multiple generations, the fancies are too linebred/inbred to really have the adaptability of their wild counterparts.
I want to try for more. This time, I'm going to go with feeder tank guppies and trade-in guppies rather than any purebred strain, since those should be a lot hardier. I'm also going to be looking for ones that obviously have a fair bit of endler in them, since endlers are much less inbred as a general rule- though I do want a couple more that are blatantly guppies, for humor purposes.
They keep getting photobombed.
Video and pictures here, from before the white one started looking uncomfortable. They were all a bit spooked-looking for a couple days, but the successfully acclimated ones are now moving freely around the tank, exploring. So far they've ignored the corals as far as I can tell, and I don't expect them to do any damage if they do ever decide to nibble- their mouths are just so small.
I really like that hot pink endler-type. I definitely want a few more like that- something about the coloration makes it look like a proper marine fish. If I didn't already know about these, you could show me one and tell me it's some sort of marine livebearer, and I'd believe you.
I may also see if I can spot a couple white ones in a mutt guppy tank somewhere. Having a pure white fish wiggling around in a marine tank is a fun look, I was a bit disappointed that the white one I managed to get into full salt didn't like it in there. Maybe it would have bounced back, but I didn't want to chance it, not when the poor thing was broadcasting "I feel lousy".
This tank has fairly low flow. I wouldn't put these in a tank with normal reef flow, at least not the long-tailed one. The endlers might be okay in decent flow, particularly if it was ramped up slowly to let them build muscle.
I will not be getting anything with a longer tail than the yellow. I'd prefer a shorter tail on everything, really.
Don't suppose anyone has a line on some male wild guppies?
One of the fish died while I was on vacation, crammed under a small flowerpot so the person I had feeding them didn't see, and took a bunch of others with it. That is one potential tricky spot here- most of the beneficial bacteria doesn't survive the acclimation. With some ulva in the tank and a relatively small number of guppies, it works fine, but you do run the risk of a death causing a cascade of problems. Note to self: don't do this when there's a vacation in the works.
I changed acclimation tactics after some reading. Instead of very slow acclimation all the way, I went with multiple stages, 0.005-0.008ppm at a time, drip-acclimated. I wound up not doing any acclimation for awhile due to my DT having leaked, so they stayed at brackish for awhile before continuing on.
The survivors of the ammonia thing were four Petsmart guppies, and three endlers (well- endler hybrids) that appear to be of varying content. Of those, one guppy and one endler looked consistently uncomfortable in the ~1.019 acclimation stage, so I dropped them back down to about 1.008. That can actually be done instantly- just scoop them and drop them into the lesser salinity.
On acclimation to full marine salinity, one guppy looked uncomfortable enough that I took it out after a few minutes. Another guppy seemed alright for a couple days, then started looking uncomfortable, and was also removed.
See the clamped fins and lowered tail on the white, compared to the yellow? The white one looked particularly interesting, so it was a shame to have to remove it, but it clearly wasn't feeling well enough for me to feel comfortable keeping it in.
I gave the dropouts a few days in brackish, then quickly cup-acclimated them to freshwater, and they're all acting normal and happy. They'll go into a 10gal freshwater tank to act as fertilizer production for some houseplant cuttings.
In short, I'm left with one Petsmart fancy guppy, and two non-purebred endlers. I'm reading that, although a lot of the issues with fancy guppy immune systems are likely due to being raised in near-sterile tanks for multiple generations, the fancies are too linebred/inbred to really have the adaptability of their wild counterparts.
I want to try for more. This time, I'm going to go with feeder tank guppies and trade-in guppies rather than any purebred strain, since those should be a lot hardier. I'm also going to be looking for ones that obviously have a fair bit of endler in them, since endlers are much less inbred as a general rule- though I do want a couple more that are blatantly guppies, for humor purposes.
They keep getting photobombed.
Video and pictures here, from before the white one started looking uncomfortable. They were all a bit spooked-looking for a couple days, but the successfully acclimated ones are now moving freely around the tank, exploring. So far they've ignored the corals as far as I can tell, and I don't expect them to do any damage if they do ever decide to nibble- their mouths are just so small.
I really like that hot pink endler-type. I definitely want a few more like that- something about the coloration makes it look like a proper marine fish. If I didn't already know about these, you could show me one and tell me it's some sort of marine livebearer, and I'd believe you.
I may also see if I can spot a couple white ones in a mutt guppy tank somewhere. Having a pure white fish wiggling around in a marine tank is a fun look, I was a bit disappointed that the white one I managed to get into full salt didn't like it in there. Maybe it would have bounced back, but I didn't want to chance it, not when the poor thing was broadcasting "I feel lousy".
This tank has fairly low flow. I wouldn't put these in a tank with normal reef flow, at least not the long-tailed one. The endlers might be okay in decent flow, particularly if it was ramped up slowly to let them build muscle.
I will not be getting anything with a longer tail than the yellow. I'd prefer a shorter tail on everything, really.
Don't suppose anyone has a line on some male wild guppies?
Rusty_L_Shackleford
Active Member
I have a few mollies I converted to salt. Ime the best way is to just do it fast. I had no losses this way. Just the standard float for 15 min then add water to the bag every 10-15 min until full and release. I've also done the slow drip and it works but I lost one doing it this way. Some people will put them in a qt tank and bring up the salinity slowly over days or weeks.
Rusty_L_Shackleford
Active Member
One of the reasons I have a couple of black mollies in my utility/qt tank. If a fish does come in harboring something it will show there first and be easier to spot, since they have no immunity. To be clear these aren't sacrificial fish, they get the same care as all my other fish and live in the utility tank full time.
Lbrdsoxfan
5000 Club Member
Was the same thinking from my importer. His mindset is that being brackish, they are already hardy as is so he treats them mainly as a plunk & pray fish. I do know he sources them as @lion king says from a freshwater source (less chance for disease) and keeps them in an isolated sw system.
OP
OP
Tired
2500 Club Member
I've read that the best way to acclimate mollies is to either drop them right in, or acclimate them to brackish, wait a few days, and then drop them right in. That's my plan for if/when I catch myself a wild sailfin molly; pop it back into freshwater for a couple weeks to kill off anything it's carrying, move to brackish, wait, and dump in saltwater.
Guppies apparently need a slightly more delicate touch, not least as they're inclined to be so inbred. Any given molly of the right species should be able to thrive in a reef, but any given fancy guppy might not. Plus, taking them in stages means I can spot ones that are doing poorly and relocate them back to freshwater.
(Don't get me wrong, dumping guppies straight in might also work, I haven't tested. You'd probably be able to manage it fine with wild or wild-strain guppies, as wild ones can live and breed in up to 150% marine salinity.)
The lack of any need for quarantine is nice. Everything else going into this tank goes through QT first, with medication for any fish, so there shouldn't be anything major for the guppies to catch.
Guppies apparently need a slightly more delicate touch, not least as they're inclined to be so inbred. Any given molly of the right species should be able to thrive in a reef, but any given fancy guppy might not. Plus, taking them in stages means I can spot ones that are doing poorly and relocate them back to freshwater.
(Don't get me wrong, dumping guppies straight in might also work, I haven't tested. You'd probably be able to manage it fine with wild or wild-strain guppies, as wild ones can live and breed in up to 150% marine salinity.)
The lack of any need for quarantine is nice. Everything else going into this tank goes through QT first, with medication for any fish, so there shouldn't be anything major for the guppies to catch.
What sg are trying to keep your guppies. They are a brackish fish and their natural range in from about 1.003-1.010. You may get some temporary success pushing it to 1.020 but not any further, anything further will definitely be short lived if at all. Mollies tolerate a much higher level, even to full reef. Mollies have even been reported breeding in as high as 1.017 in the wild. I have routinely just popped my mollies from 1-010 to1.013 to my tanks at 1.020. Straight from fresh to 1.020 losses tend to go 50/50 if they escape the predator long enough. The tip from fresh to brackish to salt is likely a good one.
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OP
OP
Tired
2500 Club Member
Right around 1.025. They've been in there since the 8th, and I have three acting completely normal, partying away, behaving the same as the ones in the freshwater tank across the room. Now, I'm fully aware that less than a week worth of normal behavior does not a long-term success make, but it does seem like a promising start.
And it's not without precedent.
This describes guppies that lived in 150% of marine salinity for 30 days, and bred during that time, before being moved back to freshwater.
This describes guppies being acclimated to saltwater as fry (albeit with a high death rate, likely due to being acclimated way too fast), maturing, and breeding in saltwater.
The guppies that I had to remove back to freshwater were fairly obvious about not tolerating the salinity very well. If I see any of these starting to look unhappy, I can remove them as well.
And it's not without precedent.
This describes guppies that lived in 150% of marine salinity for 30 days, and bred during that time, before being moved back to freshwater.
This describes guppies being acclimated to saltwater as fry (albeit with a high death rate, likely due to being acclimated way too fast), maturing, and breeding in saltwater.
The guppies that I had to remove back to freshwater were fairly obvious about not tolerating the salinity very well. If I see any of these starting to look unhappy, I can remove them as well.
OP
OP
Tired
2500 Club Member
A small problem has arisen.
This is hard to photograph because they stop doing it to beg for food if I get close, but- see the folded tail and hint of an arched back on the endler hybrid? It's decided that the guppy is a female endler, and thus should be courted. I might have to get a couple more guppies to divert the hybrid's attention- this guppy keeps getting annoyed and chasing it.
I'm going on a birding and snorkeling trip for a week, starting tomorrow. Once I've gotten back and recovered, I'm going to go to my LFS and pick up a few feeder guppies. Those should be tough as nails and acclimate well. They should also, hopefully, press those same 'this is a female endler' buttons and divert some of the courting attention.
This is hard to photograph because they stop doing it to beg for food if I get close, but- see the folded tail and hint of an arched back on the endler hybrid? It's decided that the guppy is a female endler, and thus should be courted. I might have to get a couple more guppies to divert the hybrid's attention- this guppy keeps getting annoyed and chasing it.
I'm going on a birding and snorkeling trip for a week, starting tomorrow. Once I've gotten back and recovered, I'm going to go to my LFS and pick up a few feeder guppies. Those should be tough as nails and acclimate well. They should also, hopefully, press those same 'this is a female endler' buttons and divert some of the courting attention.
Lebowski_
Valuable Member
Mollies are one of the best algae eaters on all of the aquarium hobby.
They will gleefully munch on fully grown out hair algae.
A must have in planted fw tanks, but very underrated in marine tanks with algae issues.
They will gleefully munch on fully grown out hair algae.
A must have in planted fw tanks, but very underrated in marine tanks with algae issues.
OP
OP
Tired
2500 Club Member
I'm planning to catch myself a wild sailfin molly or two at some point. That way I'll know I have a purebred one rather than the hobby mix, and I don't have to worry about if it's half something that won't do well in saltwater. Plus, catching yourself something for your tank is fun.
OP
OP
Tired
2500 Club Member
No dice. I went on a trip and came back to the guppies hanging out at the surface, still courting and not yet looking miserable but not swimming around the tank and exploring all lively. I'm drip-acclimating them back to freshwater (in one step, since this is way easier on them), and will keep them there. Guess these are too inbred to handle full marine long-term, though they did fare way better than true freshwater fish do.
I'm gonna give this one more shot, in a couple of weeks, and change tactics a little. Same technique, different subjects. One LFS near me has a tank of wild-strain feeder guppies. Those shouldn't really be any more inbred than your average wild guppy, since they're bred by just having a pond of guppies and periodically scooping some out to sell, so they should be nice and hardy.
I'm gonna give this one more shot, in a couple of weeks, and change tactics a little. Same technique, different subjects. One LFS near me has a tank of wild-strain feeder guppies. Those shouldn't really be any more inbred than your average wild guppy, since they're bred by just having a pond of guppies and periodically scooping some out to sell, so they should be nice and hardy.
BPSabelhaus
New Member
Well, I was a member of this club lol Even started with a sunset male lol But, that changed very quickly to Endlers which started my transformation to saltwater. I would skip the "wild" guppies from the feeder tank. I tried starting a colony a couple times, but they're just sickly and malnourished most times. Why feed a feeder, right 
(I gut load the roaches I feed my dragon, I feed my daphnia why not feed feeders?) anyway. As I mentioned, look for some Endlers. Cobra are very hardy as are black bars. In my experience Cumana fish transition better / faster than the more inland Campoma fish. But both do well. I'm no longer keeping a saltwater tank, but all those fish are swimming happily in tanks with plants that they don't eat lol Seriously, don't even try keeping sea lettuce in the tank. It will be gone within days
I breed live bearers, so it was getting annoying every time a handsome male popped up in my very mixed saltwater. Halfway through transitioning one, another would pop up. I pulled the fish last year and just kept shore crabs until a month or so ago when I returned them home after couple years of getting fat.
(I gut load the roaches I feed my dragon, I feed my daphnia why not feed feeders?) anyway. As I mentioned, look for some Endlers. Cobra are very hardy as are black bars. In my experience Cumana fish transition better / faster than the more inland Campoma fish. But both do well. I'm no longer keeping a saltwater tank, but all those fish are swimming happily in tanks with plants that they don't eat lol Seriously, don't even try keeping sea lettuce in the tank. It will be gone within days I breed live bearers, so it was getting annoying every time a handsome male popped up in my very mixed saltwater. Halfway through transitioning one, another would pop up. I pulled the fish last year and just kept shore crabs until a month or so ago when I returned them home after couple years of getting fat.
OP
OP
Tired
2500 Club Member
Ah, nice! I'm debating whether I want to try again, partly as I'm not sure I want to deal with tiny little idiots in this reef (filter intakes, random tiny anemones on the rocks, corals), but I'll keep that in mind for if I take a swing at this again. Endlers also have the benefit of the shorter tails.
Any suggestions on source? I know Endlers Ark has purebred ones.
Any suggestions on source? I know Endlers Ark has purebred ones.
kingmushroom
New Member
There is a study with acclimation of mollies and guppies to saltwater:
"tolerance of Poecilia spp. to salinity: use in bio-essays with salinized samples"
In short, from fresh straight to 15g/l salinity for a week.
After this period, the fish can go to freshwater or saltwater and survive.
They compared the survival rate from fresh to a range of salinity Vs from 15g/l to fresh, and up to 40g/l (saltwater is close to 35g/l in average).
Naekuh
Well-Known Member
Gah... enders... you put a male in female, in.. a few weeks later, you got 10, another week later you got another 40. Pretty soon when you feed the tank you notice your fish food wont last a week what used to last a month.
I remember mollies being called the poor man's Tang.
Because they will nip at hair algae, and Turf Algae, hence the designation poor man's Tang.
Also they don't require the space Tangs' required, and no one got mad at you for killing a Mollie.
I remember mollies being called the poor man's Tang.
Because they will nip at hair algae, and Turf Algae, hence the designation poor man's Tang.
Also they don't require the space Tangs' required, and no one got mad at you for killing a Mollie.
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