ZOINKS! Pt. 2

RobertTheNurse · Nov 5, 2020

Hey everyone!!

Im about to dose cupramine on my Cardinal. Just about to perform another 40% water change as I had an ammonia issue, and used a little prime for comfort.

I wanted to dose copper yesterday but read that its a no no when using prime...so waited a full 24 hours and gonna do a water change.

Background...fish was not eating (still not eating for 3 days)...breathing a little fast and now has "the white stringy pooh). Gonna dose cupramine slowly over 2 days...then wait 48 hrs and then dose slowly again...before I did this water change im about to do I checked my ammonia level and it was around 0.2 to 0.4 (kinda between those colours) im using Red Sea Ammonia test.

My question is...if the fish hasn't really been eating AND im about to dose cupramine...any suggestions? Mixed a lil garlic and pebbles but not interested...and not even eating brine shrimp either.

Jay Hemdal · Nov 5, 2020

I'm not sure where this "ramp copper up slowly" idea comes from. I think it is a carryover from the old copper sulfate/citric acid days, where sometimes you could kill Centropyge angels if you didn't take two days to ramp the copper up. I put fish right into full organically chelated copper all the time, and so do many importers. When a fish isn't eating and breathing heavily, adding copper slowly is only going to allow the disease to get further ahead. Another option would be to use API's General Cure - it will have more benefit for internal disease issues.

Also, I hate to mention it, but there is this: (an excerpt from my upcoming fish disease book)

Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus (BCIR)

This disease was originally discovered in 1933 but then lost to science for about 60 years, when the Banggai cardinalfish (Pterapogon kauderni) was “rediscovered” and began entering the tropical fish trade. Aquarists noted how hardy the species was and that they were very easy to reproduce in captivity. A decade later, the price for wild-caught Banggai cardinalfish had decreased fivefold, but the animals were now considered very delicate, with high losses seen in newly acquired wild fish.

What was the cause of this sudden change in the apparent health of this species in captivity? Poor handling, collection with cyanide (unlikely), and bacterial disease were all suggested as possible reasons for this change. A researcher then published a study showing that the presence of an iridovirus was associated with episodes of mass mortality in newly imported cardinalfish (Weber et al. 2009). A similar virus has since been isolated from the common batfish, Platax orbicularis (Sriwanayos et al. 2013), but a corresponding high mortality in aquarium fish of that species has not been noted, perhaps because many fewer batfish are imported for the pet trade than the ever-popular Banggai cardinalfish.

Since there is no cure for this viral disease, captive-raised fish that were never exposed to wild stock, or fish that have subsequently developed immunity by surviving an infection would be the best choices for aquarists. Avoid inexpensive wild-caught Banggai Cardinalfish. Not only do they have a poor survival record, but they’re also being collected at such a high rate that wild populations are locally threatened with extinction.

Jay

RobertTheNurse · Nov 5, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
I'm not sure where this "ramp copper up slowly" idea comes from. I think it is a carryover from the old copper sulfate/citric acid days, where sometimes you could kill Centropyge angels if you didn't take two days to ramp the copper up. I put fish right into full organically chelated copper all the time, and so do many importers. When a fish isn't eating and breathing heavily, adding copper slowly is only going to allow the disease to get further ahead. Another option would be to use API's General Cure - it will have more benefit for internal disease issues.

Also, I hate to mention it, but there is this: (an excerpt from my upcoming fish disease book)

Banggai Cardinalfish Iridovirus (BCIR)

This disease was originally discovered in 1933 but then lost to science for about 60 years, when the Banggai cardinalfish (Pterapogon kauderni) was “rediscovered” and began entering the tropical fish trade. Aquarists noted how hardy the species was and that they were very easy to reproduce in captivity. A decade later, the price for wild-caught Banggai cardinalfish had decreased fivefold, but the animals were now considered very delicate, with high losses seen in newly acquired wild fish.

What was the cause of this sudden change in the apparent health of this species in captivity? Poor handling, collection with cyanide (unlikely), and bacterial disease were all suggested as possible reasons for this change. A researcher then published a study showing that the presence of an iridovirus was associated with episodes of mass mortality in newly imported cardinalfish (Weber et al. 2009). A similar virus has since been isolated from the common batfish, Platax orbicularis (Sriwanayos et al. 2013), but a corresponding high mortality in aquarium fish of that species has not been noted, perhaps because many fewer batfish are imported for the pet trade than the ever-popular Banggai cardinalfish.

Since there is no cure for this viral disease, captive-raised fish that were never exposed to wild stock, or fish that have subsequently developed immunity by surviving an infection would be the best choices for aquarists. Avoid inexpensive wild-caught Banggai Cardinalfish. Not only do they have a poor survival record, but they’re also being collected at such a high rate that wild populations are locally threatened with extinction.

Jay

Hey. A lot of information on this website. I hope my fish store was honest when they said it was captive bred. I have to only assume they are telling the truth. My honest opinion is that fish stores probably treat their fish in a low copper level to mask symptoms. They did tell me they "treat all their fish with copper"...some stores only treat "when we see signs of disease".

Living in Canada makes it really tough to be in this hobby. You have no other option but to trust what you are being told by LFSs.

It sounds like you have a lot of expertise when it comes to handling fish. Im just starting out in the hobby. I find it comforting and it gives me something to do -- and im always learning.

I've also noticed that everybody does things differently here. So it's great you took the time to give me your perspective.

It makes sense to start with the usual dose that is recommended on the bottle...especially in this circumstance.

Any tips on trying to get this one eating again? Or is this just the nature of what im assuming is parasites?

The other fish seems healthy for now, but im assuming it is just as infected.

Rob

Jay Hemdal · Nov 5, 2020

I've always found that to get a fish started feeding again, you need to resolve the core issue. Appetite stimulants and the like just aren't cut out to overcome a lack of feeding response due to disease. Garlic is the big thing now. Back in the early 1970's it was a B12 vitamin mix called "Appetite" - I went through bottles of it as a kid, never worked.

If this is an internal protozoan issue, or the virus, your other fish may never become affected.

jay

RobertTheNurse · Nov 5, 2020

Jay Hemdal said:
I've always found that to get a fish started feeding again, you need to resolve the core issue. Appetite stimulants and the like just aren't cut out to overcome a lack of feeding response due to disease. Garlic is the big thing now. Back in the early 1970's it was a B12 vitamin mix called "Appetite" - I went through bottles of it as a kid, never worked.

If this is an internal protozoan issue, or the virus, your other fish may never become affected.

jay

I was able to get my hands on cupramine, prazipro, and seachem metro...

Plan -- copper at theaputic level for 30 days
Prazipro
Metro

Then if both are good by the end then put in display.

Thoughts?

Hope this one pulls through.

Thanks