Very Frustrated and confused - Ick

[LSKreefer]

Hi needless to say I'm very frustrated and confused on what to do. I have a 220 that I set up back in September I started to add fish slowly using the quarantine method. All my parameter are good, Its pretty much a fish only tank, other then a few leathers. Most of the fish I have in there do not show signs of ick, however my kole tang and a lawnmower blenny tend to flash or itch. I got a Majestic angle after Christmas and has been in quarantine until this past week I put in the DT, he is cover with ick, so that meant that ick is present in my tank.

What I have in the tank is Yellow tang, kole tank, lawnmower blenny, green chromis, coral beauty, red head wrasse, flame hawkfish, and mandarin and the majestic angel, which I think I might lose.

I decided to pull everyone from the tank and do the cuppermine treatment and also leave the DT fallow for 8 -12 weeks to try and kill off ick. However I read the sticky post on ick, and now I'm very confused on what to do. I have quarantine tanks set up and ready to go.

Also if I do the cuppermine treatment will my wrasse, chromis and mandarin tolerate it. Or would it be safe to leave the mandarins in the DT or do they get the ick as well, I know they tend to repell them and they are doing find in the tank. I also have a healthy copepod critters for them to eat which they are both fat and sassy. So I kind of worry about taking them out, but if I leave them in the tank will ick attach them and therefor my tank is not fallow.

Thanks for any input that you may have.
Linda

 

[Bry]

In order to rid your DT of Ich you need to get All the fish out.. I've never had a mandarin to know how he will take the treatment but he has to come out of the DT to win the battle.

 

[LSKreefer]

Ok let me ask another question, since I don't really have corals only leathers, which I can take out of the tank and put into another tank and reduce the salinity in the DT for however many weeks to get get rid of ick or do I need to take all the fish out of the DT to be affective in getting rid of ick.

 

[BENT STIX]

I am convinced that is it near impossible to keep ich out of a tank. Almost every fish store has it and if 1 drop of their water gets into your tank when adding fish/coral, you got it. I am a huge believer is UV sterilizers. I run a uv on my tank and feed heavy with vitamins. Healthy fish are the best defense imo.

 

[NanaReefer]

Would it be possible to home your Mandarin elsewhere for the time being? Mandarins have a very heavy slim coat which gives them extra protection from parasites. It is pretty unlikely he/she has ICH. But not impossible. They do not tolerate Copper Treatments very well.
Doing a hypo on your DT may cause issue (like killing) your beneficial bacteria and anything else that may be living in your rock. Thus causing your tank to cycle.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Hyposalinity Treatment

Lowering Salinity
Over a period of about 36-48 hours (use 48 for most Tangs, Butterflyfishes, Lionfishes, Puffers, and Dwarf Angelfishes) lower the specific through water removal and RO/DI or distilled water additions. Watch pH and temperature of the added water -- match that of the water being replaced. Use only a refractometer to measure the specific gravity. Lower the specific gravity to a reading of 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units. Hold it there throughout the treatment.

Maintenance
If the treatment tank has an active biological filter, don't assume it's working. When salinity is lowered the bacteria sometimes enter into a state of suspension and hold off in their metabolism of ammonia and nitrites. Controlling water quality and especially pH will be the challenge. Check for ammonia, nitrites, and pH twice each day at the start, until readings are zero for ammonia and nitrites. Don't count on the pH to remain steady. It must be checked no less than twice a day and if needed, adjusted.

Make water changes to control organics, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc. If all is steady, still make water changes of 35% or more every other day. After the first water use, the only water to use to make changes is made up water from salt. DO NOT USE DISPLAY TANK WATER to make water changes in a treatment tank, no matter what disease is being treated.

Nutrition
The fish must be offered and gotten to eat throughout the process. The best foods must be given.



Salinity Control
If the tank water salinity is allowed to go up, the Marine Ich parasite will not be killed or stressed into submission. If the tank water salinity goes below the target salinity, the fish are in danger. HOLD THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY very closely within 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units.

Treatment Time
The fish is kept in hyposalinity until the aquarist can no longer see any spots on the fish. After the last spot disappears, the hyposalinity continues for another 4 weeks. If during that 4 weeks, if any spot is seen, the time/clock starts over. There must be a minimum of 4 solid weeks with no spot EVER seen.

Raising Salinity
Now raise the specific gravity slowly. The raising of the specific gravity is very stressful on fish and this part must be done slowly. It should take 6 to 7 days to return the water to its normal salinity. Raise the specific gravity by about 0.003 sp. gr. units or less, per day. Less is okay. No need to be ultra conservative and go beyond 8 days to do this. BUT in no way try to shorten the time to less than 6 days.

When the treatment time is over, there is no need to add back distilled water to compensate for water evaporated. Let that be part of the raising of the salinity. When you go to raise the salinity, add small quantities of high specific gravity mixed and aged salt water.

Continue to monitor all water parameters and chemistries.


PROOF

Verification
After the salinity is returned to normal, hold the fish in the treatment tank for another 4 weeks to verify it is cured. Look for spots every day, very closely. Observe the fish behavior, breathing rate, flashing (scratching) and look for any other Marine Ich symptoms. At the end of this time, the fish is cured/free of Marine Ich IF no other symptoms are seen/observed.
LEEBCA

 

[TJ's Reef]

You most certainly can have an Ich/parasite free marine aquarium, just takes a disciplined QT protocol. Everything including Coral should really go through a proper and complete QT process before being placed into a DT especially if a large one. Very difficult at best but definitely achievable. Strong healthy Fish are most likely to ward off or keep at bay occasional small outbreaks but a major outbreak will overwhelm them with shear numbers of the parasite and end badly. I am not preaching here as have paid the price myself in not fully executing proper QT in the not so distant past.Cheers, Todd

 

[LSKreefer]

I am convinced that is it near impossible to keep ich out of a tank. Almost every fish store has it and if 1 drop of their water gets into your tank when adding fish/coral, you got it. I am a huge believer is UV sterilizers. I run a uv on my tank and feed heavy with vitamins. Healthy fish are the best defense imo.

I totally agree with you that's why I try to do the preventative, I may be guilty about the corals, as I don't think of ick being on the rocks. I have uv light active on all my tanks, I also prepared all their foods with selcon, beta gluten, vitamins and vitamin c. I also include garlic as well. I purchase the high grade frozen food as well as flakes and pellets. Most of the fish in the tank are healthy but since they are expose to ick, I feel its going to be a never ending battle as i will not be able to put new fish in the tank.

 

[LSKreefer]

Would it be possible to home your Mandarin elsewhere for the time being? Mandarins have a very heavy slim coat which gives them extra protection from parasites. It is pretty unlikely he/she has ICH. But not impossible. They do not tolerate Copper Treatments very well.
Doing a hypo on your DT may cause issue (like killing) your beneficial bacteria and anything else that may be living in your rock. Thus causing your tank to cycle.

Yes, I have a 30 gal which has been cycling for quite some time now, I was going to set a clown fish tank for granddaughter; just don't have any sand it so I would need to get some live sand and some copepods to start a colony. I have a 45g, but I have a lot of bottom fish now such as my jawfish and yellow watchman, and really don't want to put them in there as i still would like to get them in the big tank down the line.

 

[LSKreefer]

Thank you so much for this run down of hypo-salinity treatment. I decided I'm going to put them in the two quarantine/hospital tanks that I set up already. My concern with doing this method is really doing it right knowing my luck I'll mess it up. What is your thoughts/or your procedure with cuppermine? Like I said this is where I really get confuse on the best way to do this half say hypo-salinity, and the other half is the copper treatment. Even then I'm nervous about doing that as well.

Also when I let the DT go fallow for 10 - 12 weeks, how do I know that I don't have any more ick in the DT without fish?

Hyposalinity Treatment

Lowering Salinity
Over a period of about 36-48 hours (use 48 for most Tangs, Butterflyfishes, Lionfishes, Puffers, and Dwarf Angelfishes) lower the specific through water removal and RO/DI or distilled water additions. Watch pH and temperature of the added water -- match that of the water being replaced. Use only a refractometer to measure the specific gravity. Lower the specific gravity to a reading of 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units. Hold it there throughout the treatment.

Maintenance
If the treatment tank has an active biological filter, don't assume it's working. When salinity is lowered the bacteria sometimes enter into a state of suspension and hold off in their metabolism of ammonia and nitrites. Controlling water quality and especially pH will be the challenge. Check for ammonia, nitrites, and pH twice each day at the start, until readings are zero for ammonia and nitrites. Don't count on the pH to remain steady. It must be checked no less than twice a day and if needed, adjusted.

Make water changes to control organics, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc. If all is steady, still make water changes of 35% or more every other day. After the first water use, the only water to use to make changes is made up water from salt. DO NOT USE DISPLAY TANK WATER to make water changes in a treatment tank, no matter what disease is being treated.

Nutrition
The fish must be offered and gotten to eat throughout the process. The best foods must be given.



Salinity Control
If the tank water salinity is allowed to go up, the Marine Ich parasite will not be killed or stressed into submission. If the tank water salinity goes below the target salinity, the fish are in danger. HOLD THE SPECIFIC GRAVITY very closely within 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units.

Treatment Time
The fish is kept in hyposalinity until the aquarist can no longer see any spots on the fish. After the last spot disappears, the hyposalinity continues for another 4 weeks. If during that 4 weeks, if any spot is seen, the time/clock starts over. There must be a minimum of 4 solid weeks with no spot EVER seen.

Raising Salinity
Now raise the specific gravity slowly. The raising of the specific gravity is very stressful on fish and this part must be done slowly. It should take 6 to 7 days to return the water to its normal salinity. Raise the specific gravity by about 0.003 sp. gr. units or less, per day. Less is okay. No need to be ultra conservative and go beyond 8 days to do this. BUT in no way try to shorten the time to less than 6 days.

When the treatment time is over, there is no need to add back distilled water to compensate for water evaporated. Let that be part of the raising of the salinity. When you go to raise the salinity, add small quantities of high specific gravity mixed and aged salt water.

Continue to monitor all water parameters and chemistries.


PROOF

Verification
After the salinity is returned to normal, hold the fish in the treatment tank for another 4 weeks to verify it is cured. Look for spots every day, very closely. Observe the fish behavior, breathing rate, flashing (scratching) and look for any other Marine Ich symptoms. At the end of this time, the fish is cured/free of Marine Ich IF no other symptoms are seen/observed.
LEEBCA

 

[LSKreefer]

You most certainly can have an Ich/parasite free marine aquarium, just takes a disciplined QT protocol. Everything including Coral should really go through a proper and complete QT process before being placed into a DT especially if a large one. Very difficult at best but definitely achievable. Strong healthy Fish are most likely to ward off or keep at bay occasional small outbreaks but a major outbreak will overwhelm them with shear numbers of the parasite and end badly. I am not preaching here as have paid the price myself in not fully executing proper QT in the not so distant past.Cheers, Todd

I really hope it is achievable, I have taken care of Discus for years and never had as much problem with disease in a tank as I have with salt. I do agree its best for the quarantine and for a much longer time that I probably give it. I not use copper before because I was afraid to use it, but it sounds that I should just to be on the safe side.

 

[Reefing Madness]

The parasite will die off in 8 weeks with no host.
I don' treally like to use those kinds of chemicals on the fish, especially if you can kill it with no chemicals.

 

[miyags]

Start cupramine treatment slow and build up too.5mg/l. I do 1/2 the recommended dose to start about 7 drops a day till max dose. You could go slower with the tank that has wrasse and mandarin. I'm just finishing treatment for wrasse myself,I use no sand and he's fine. I'd go fishless for 12 weeks. Use seachem copper test kit and seachem ammonia alert, It help you to know if you have to do a quick water change. Your fish might stop eating at first but don't panic just try fresh food like raw shrimp and scallops cut in little pieces.

 

[LSKreefer]

Start cupramine treatment slow and build up too.5mg/l. I do 1/2 the recommended dose to start about 7 drops a day till max dose. You could go slower with the tank that has wrasse and mandarin. I'm just finishing treatment for wrasse myself,I use no sand and he's fine. I'd go fishless for 12 weeks. Use seachem copper test kit and seachem ammonia alert, It help you to know if you have to do a quick water change. Your fish might stop eating at first but don't panic just try fresh food like raw shrimp and scallops cut in little pieces.

I have two 20g tank I was going to put the the more sensitive fish in one and the tangs in the other. The mandarins im kind of hesitated to medicate them. How sensitive are the chromis and the lawnmower blenny should they go in the sensitive tank. What do u recommend on the dosages for each tank. Thanks for the input.

 

[NanaReefer]

I have read that you can raise your temp to 85-94 in the DT to speed up the ICH gestation period. Thus making sure all eggs hatch during the 8-10 week fallow period.

 

[QUILLA26]

I usually raise the temperature until the ich is gone, out works great

 

[Palting]

I have two 20g tank I was going to put the the more sensitive fish in one and the tangs in the other. The mandarins im kind of hesitated to medicate them. How sensitive are the chromis and the lawnmower blenny should they go in the sensitive tank. What do u recommend on the dosages for each tank. Thanks for the input.

I treated a green mandarin, along with 4 tangs and other fish, with hyposalinity. The problem with the mandarin is not the hyposalinity, it's that they have nothing to eat. The treatment will kill all inverts, including pods. My mandarin would eat only live food. He survives, but got quite thin. The good news is that there was a buffet of exorbitant proportions waiting for him in the DT. With the DT being fallow for 8 weeks, plus my seeding it with live pods, there was a population explosion of pods. He was pecking continuously like a ticker machine when he went back to the DT, and got fat again in no time. BTW, that was almost 4 years ago, and I have had an Ich free tank since treatment.

Bottom line is, do you want the best chance for an Ich free tank? If so, then you MUST treat ALL fish. It makes no sense to me to go through all that process of treatment, Copper or hyposalinity, only to have it fail because you took a risk and exempted the mandarin and other fragile fish. I would rather risk losing the fish than getting Ich back after treatment. Makes sense to you?

 

[Reefing Madness]

If you've got any coral in that tank, do not go raising your temps up, its not going to help rid the DT of the ICH, and you stand the risk of killing those corals. ALot of Inverts won't do well with those temps either.

 

[LSKreefer]

I treated a green mandarin, along with 4 tangs and other fish, with hyposalinity. The problem with the mandarin is not the hyposalinity, it's that they have nothing to eat. The treatment will kill all inverts, including pods. My mandarin would eat only live food. He survives, but got quite thin. The good news is that there was a buffet of exorbitant proportions waiting for him in the DT. With the DT being fallow for 8 weeks, plus my seeding it with live pods, there was a population explosion of pods. He was pecking continuously like a ticker machine when he went back to the DT, and got fat again in no time. BTW, that was almost 4 years ago, and I have had an Ich free tank since treatment.

Bottom line is, do you want the best chance for an Ich free tank? If so, then you MUST treat ALL fish. It makes no sense to me to go through all that process of treatment, Copper or hyposalinity, only to have it fail because you took a risk and exempted the mandarin and other fragile fish. I would rather risk losing the fish than getting Ich back after treatment. Makes sense to you?

It makes sense to me, so I put them with the rest of the guys. I moved them all in both of the hospital tank, :cry: now my DT is a mess, got to redo everything.

 

[mtfish]

Good you got all the fish out of the DT. There is a third way to treat ich using the tank transfer method. It does take two tanks to make it work though. It takes 12 days to get through the procedure and you must sanitize and dry each tank between transfers. Do a search of this method if you would like all the details. It is what I use and works completely.