Copper in a reef aquarium discussion.

[Young Frankenstein]

Most synthetic salts contain copper higher than the ocean levels 0.001 ppm, usually higher than .015 ppm is found in synthetic salts, my personal opinion is that sometimes is much higher than that, it may also be a reason for those perfect parameter sps loses. Testing for copper accurately at low levels may be impossible without using very expensive equipment. So I am looking for solutions after reading many articles Seachemcopisorb may be a potential solution to the problem. I want to hear from those that had issues and those that have experience using this product.

Seachem. CupriSorb

 

[Young Frankenstein]

The following PDF shows elevated copper levels in synthetic salts, I am a firm believer the crashes of nice tanks with perfect parameters are a result of the copper. A simple filtering of fresh salt mix with the Sachem copisorb will generate better coloration and a safer tank.
http://richmondreefers.com/phpbb/download/file.php?id=2607&sid=ccb41a02f38e5fa779b73347e9772769

Seachem. CupriSorb

 

[beaslbob]

something to consider is the filtering out of copper from algae in the system.

There is very little experimental data on bioaccumulation of copper by macro (and other) algaes. I did find some experiments where macors were exposed to various copper levels for 2 weeks and the copper in the macros were measured. With an exposure of 250ppm (water levels), copper in the macros rose from 30ppm to 1050ppm or so. It was also noted that the bio accumulation was linear with the exposure concentration and length of exposure. Most macros had not "maxed out" after two weeks.


Another study of the at faucet copper levels reported that ~60% of the major US cities of copper levels of 250ppm or less.


I know copper at the part per billion level is detrimental to corals. But it would seem that algae in the aquarium would bring down those copper levels to acceptable levels where coral thrive.

But that's just my .02

 

[-Logzor]

Will carbon alone remove copper?

 

[sunshinereefer]

The following PDF shows elevated copper levels in synthetic salts, I am a firm believer the crashes of nice tanks with perfect parameters are a result of the copper. A simple filtering of fresh salt mix with the Sachem copisorb will generate better coloration and a safer tank.
http://richmondreefers.com/phpbb/download/file.php?id=2607&sid=ccb41a02f38e5fa779b73347e9772769

Seachem. CupriSorb

Thanks for sharing the test results. Are there any updates or recent tests being conducted?

 

[-Logzor]

Is there any risks to using cuprisorb?

 

[Chameleon]

according to much of my reading its normal to have elevated level of copper in your tank. even Randy Holmes-Farley has levels of 15ppm in his tank. I think it would be great to get this copper out before going into the tank to prevent future crashes because you never know when you will hit the breaking point. Here is a good starter read on the matter.
What you need to know about copper and coral - Reef Central Online Community

 

[Jorsh]

Great!, i made a big mistake of add zeospur, just 2 ml in a 90 gallon's tank, the resul catastrophic, i lose a pink´s lemonade colony, a banana and a watermellon romels, i think that zeospur is cupper cause the results was inmediatly, i have to use a cupper remover.

 

[-Logzor]

I might have to pick some of this stuff up. I swear my tank went downhill after using zeospur2, which happens to contain copper...

Funny that you post this today, I was laying down last night thinking about perhaps copper toxicity causing my problems.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

something to consider is the filtering out of copper from algae in the system.

There is very little experimental data on bioaccumulation of copper by macro (and other) algaes. I did find some experiments where macors were exposed to various copper levels for 2 weeks and the copper in the macros were measured. With an exposure of 250ppm (water levels), copper in the macros rose from 30ppm to 1050ppm or so. It was also noted that the bio accumulation was linear with the exposure concentration and length of exposure. Most macros had not "maxed out" after two weeks.


Another study of the at faucet copper levels reported that ~60% of the major US cities of copper levels of 250ppm or less.


I know copper at the part per billion level is detrimental to corals. But it would seem that algae in the aquarium would bring down those copper levels to acceptable levels where coral thrive.

But that's just my .02

I agree its a major problem and very badly overlooked.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Will carbon alone remove copper?

No it will not, theres cases that copper was leached from carbon. GFO will bind some copper.

 

[Young Frankenstein]

according to much of my reading its normal to have elevated level of copper in your tank. even Randy Holmes-Farley has levels of 15ppm in his tank. I think it would be great to get this copper out before going into the tank to prevent future crashes because you never know when you will hit the breaking point. Here is a good starter read on the matter.
What you need to know about copper and coral - Reef Central Online Community

Yes Randy has tested and has 15ppm copper but that does not mean its ok he was also surprised to have so much copper, also he has mostly softies in his tank

 

[Young Frankenstein]

The following thread is proof of copper in our systems.

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge...89012-my-green-slimer-went-pics-acropora.html

 

[wysiwyg]

could also be very detrmental to some fish all inverts and sharks and rays as they do not tolerate copper lvls

 

[Aqua Craft]

I just discovered this thread. Copper (Cu) at 0.15 ppm is the treatment level required to treat Ich. Copper sulfate (non chelated) is added to a treatment, hospital or quarantine tank. It is maintained at this level for a minimum of 20 o 30 days. This level is most harmful to invertebrates. This is why copper cannot be added to the main display aquairum at this level with corals.

There are a few marine salts that employ the use of technical to commercial grade raw materials / ingredients. It has been long recognized that the use of low purity ingredients in the manufacture of marine salts can, will and usually does introduce unwanted impurities. Such as heavy metals (also ammonia, silicates, etc).

There are several brands of marine salts that do not have levels of copper at 0.15 ppm or higher. Sorry, they cost more because ingredients cost more.

The use of activated carbon or copper absorbing products can lower or eliminate copper when testing with aquarium grade test kits. However, when copper (a metal) is removed in this manner, other essential trace metals are also adsorbed or removed.

Copper can leach from low quality carbon (coco carbon). Or can be natural leached from carbon with a reduction of pH.

Utilizing carbon or a other chemical filter mediums usually results in the reduction of Cu and other metals. When some hobbyists learn this, they attempt to replenish "trace elements" with a trace supplements, as they continue using carbon or a chemical filtering medium. Unfortunately the hobbyist is creating a solution that is chemically totally out of their control.

Trace element supplements can be used after a carbon treatment has been discontinued, between water changes (in heavily stocked aquaria, or used to supplement low end marine salts.

Copper added as a medication in the form of CuSo4, or high levels of copper found in low end marine salts can accumulate in the tissues of sea plants and some alga. Copper levels appear to be reduced or eliminated (depending on the quality of the aquarists Cu test kit).

Copper in the salt water aquarium appears to be pH related. E.g. The same aquarium with a pH of 8.3-8.4 that appears to have copper reduced or eliminated via natural dissipation (exposure and/or contact with calcareous material) and/or chemical filtration, can test at high levels of toxic copper if the falls to pH 7.6-. All past introduction of copper or high levels found in low grade marine salts can return at lethal levels if pH drops to 7.6-.

It is always best to use a marine salt that is low in metals and avoid initial chemical filtration in an effort to correct problems generated by a poorly manufactured product

 

[Young Frankenstein]

I agree and thanks for the reply I know you do sell salt, could you tell us the content of copper in your salt, also if there is no accurate test kit for low range copper how can we be sure we don't have copper in our systems from daily chemical dosing ?

 

[Aqua Craft]

I do not want to go off topic. However copper in the closed marine aquarium is a great concern. Of greater concern are high levels of metals not easily tested by marine aquarium hobbyists. There are other factors that can attribute to inaccurate copper test results.

Copper levels in Aqua Craft Products marine salts is similar to levels found in natural sea water.

For accurate testing of low levels of copper, try the following:

Add 1/2 the amount of aquarium water in the test vile with your copper test kit. Use the same amount of test reagents. This will offer a close approximation of what copper amount is found at 50% of standard testable level.

This approach can be used with PO4 test kits for learning low levels or lower than the kits standard testable levels.

It is essential to use a copper test kit that will provide accurate measurements of the type of copper you add in your aquarium. E.g. unchelated copper must be tested with a kit that is specifically designed to test for this copper form. Chelated copper must be tested with a test kit that is specifically made to test chelated or bonded copper.

What "daily chemical dosing" gives you concerns about adding Cu? Have you tested the freshly mixed marine salt you currently use for Cu?

If you use RO, RO/DI make up water and you test freshly mixed marine salts and you get concerning test results for ammonia, copper or silicate.... Step up to better initial water quality. E.g. Pay a little more for better initial water quality (better quality marine salts) for your captive marine pets.

Periodically low purity sulfate can have high levels of antimony. Antimony (Sb w/atomic number of 51) is sometimes erroneously identified as led (Pb). Sb and other metals can interfere with some aquarium grade copper test kit results. The largest applications for metallic antimony are as alloying material for lead and tin and for lead antimony plates in lead-acid batteries.

I.e. We were approached by a sulfate producer for possible use in Aqua Craft Products marine salts. Upon investigation we learned that this suppliers sulfate was derived from recycled auto batteries. We asked for a 2 Kg sample. An independent lab. utilizing atomic absorption and spectrographic analysis confirmed high levels of Sb (2000+x higher than NSW).

There are at least two European producers of marine salts where independent laboratory testing confirms significantly higher levels of: aluminum (Al), lead (Pb), nickel (Ni) vs. levels found in NSW. These two EU producers of marine salts currently produce no less than 5 different brands of marine salts. One with 3 brands with their name. One with one brand with their name. One of these producers is private labeling under their clients brand. All of these brands are available worldwide.

What is interesting is that these EU producers have openly indicated (in print adverts. & on their respective packages) their brands are made with pharmaceutical grade ingredients and/or are identical to sea water. If these brands do employ pharmaceutical raw materials, one would wonder why very high levels of aluminum, lead, nickle are found in their finished products? Do they add these metels at these amounts? If so, these brands are not "identical" to sea water. If they add these metals at these levels, why? One could speculate that these metals might be present as impurities found in non-pharmaceutical ingredients? One might also wonder how these brands could be price competitive if 100% pharmaceutical grade ingredients were used (cost might prove to be prohibitive).

There is at least one US made marine salt that claims to be made with pharmaceutical grade ingredients. A few emails and phone calls confirms that this brand uses one or more forms of Mg that are made in China and are technical grade. The Mg is purchased in the USA and initially is described as USP. However, when samples of this very same material was sent to us, it was labled as "technical grade". When I called the supplier it was revealed that this is imported material from China and is in fact technical grade.

Steve, what size is your marine aquarium and how much water do you mix at one time?

MDP

 

[Young Frankenstein]

Thanks for the great info, I am sure it will help many fellow reefers understand better marine salts, as myself. I have total 180g and mix 40g each time, I do a water change every 2 to 3 weeks but may reduce that, I have excellent skimming and denitration using refugiums etc so there is no need for a water change other than to what I feel is giving them " a breath of fresh air", I dose and test most chemicals. My consern with copper started after puzling muself with the following thread https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/ge...89012-my-green-slimer-went-pics-acropora.html . This thread shows a great fellow reefer with the end result being that copper was in his system. Also after digging more into this found the consentration of copper in most salts is unecceptabel.

 

[robert]

Good topic -

Another overlooked source of copper may the the substrate in your tank. Oolitic sand is a very common substrate - considered entirely reef safe - even sells at a premium.

It is a precipitated sand and typically contains copper at 35-40ppm (along with elevated phosphates) At a pH above 8.0 there is little to worry about - but at lower pH (as if often found deeper in the sand bed) - the sand can potentially become a significant copper source for the tank, especially if disturbed.

 

[Chameleon]

interesting thread so far yall keep it comming