1 Year Old Tank - High Nutrients - Setup a Fuge - Should I do anything else?

[sanzz18]

I have been battling with what I feel is elevated nutrients. I had setup a chaeto refugium with marinepure cubes a couple weeks ago after posting a question a month or two ago on here. I tested my nutrients this morning; phosphate is 0.5 and nitrates are between 25-40 on the nyos kit. I am not chasing any numbers but I am really eager to get these numbers lower so I can really start adding SPS testers since my tank is roughly a year old with coraline, sponges, filter feeders all over the place. I think my tank is ready for SPS if it wasn't for the high/unstable nutrient levels.

I have a Waterbox 220.6 tank with a refugium section built into the sump. Should I let this refugium do its thing? Will the elevated nitrates prevent my chaeto from taking off?

Or should I intervene and work on getting these nutrients lower? If so, multiple very large water changes for me is not practical at the moment. What method would be best in lowering nutrients?

 

[Spare time]

Chaeto will gladly take out nitrate and phosphate. Given proper lighting, and possibly the addition of some trace elements, macroalgae will lower those. I can't say the exact ratio it will lower the two by, but you can always do things to lower or raise one.

 

[Lavey29]

I always prefer a natural solution to a tank problem rather then dumping chimicals in. Nice fuge would always be a preferred method for me dealing with nuisance algae and nitrates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I always prefer a natural solution to a tank problem rather then dumping chimicals in. Nice fuge would always be a preferred method for me dealing with nuisance algae and nitrates.

lol

I'm always amazed when folks think chemicals are unnatural.

Lanthanum binding phosphate? Natural process in the ocean. Very important in deep water.

Iron oxide binding phosphate? Happens in sediments all the time.

Vinegar to drive nitrate reduction? That's the single highest turnover organic chemical (acetate) in the ocean, driving plenty of natural denitrification.

We just amplify natural processes, package them conveniently for use, and put them in reef tanks, we didn't invented them out of thin air.

 

[sanzz18]

lol

I'm always amazed when folks think chemicals are unnatural.

Lanthanum binding phosphate? Natural process in the ocean. Very important in deep water.

Iron oxide binding phosphate? Happens in sediments all the time.

Vinegar to drive nitrate reduction? That's the single highest turnover organic chemical (acetate) in the ocean, driving plenty of natural denitrification.

We just amplify natural processes, package them conveniently for use, and put them in reef tanks, we didn't invented them out of thin air.

Thanks for this awesome bit of info. Do you think I should utilize any of these methods with my current situation?

Is my refugium going to be able to lower my nutrients if it is simply a smaller compartment in my Waterbox 220.6 sump or should I lower them so it can try to keep up and manage the nutrients afterwards?

I know people including yourself told me these levels aren’t particularly high but I am afraid to waste more sps.

 

[Lavey29]

lol

I'm always amazed when folks think chemicals are unnatural.

Lanthanum binding phosphate? Natural process in the ocean. Very important in deep water.

Iron oxide binding phosphate? Happens in sediments all the time.

Vinegar to drive nitrate reduction? That's the single highest turnover organic chemical (acetate) in the ocean, driving plenty of natural denitrification.

We just amplify natural processes, package them conveniently for use, and put them in reef tanks, we didn't invented them out of thin air.

Yes the ocean produces all those naturally...lol...and yes I agree there are natural substances that can be used as you stated but there are man made chemicals available for your tank also and I am trying to avoid stuff like that. A simple example is using live ocean rock versus man made pieces of concrete rock. Which one typically gives you better results at start up and during the various stages a tank matures.

 

[madlos123]

I used to have 80 ppm nitrates. I feed 3 cubes of frozen food a day Then I got my chaeto in a bucket in my sump started. Got a 50W plant light and turn it only for 12 hours every night and dose chaetogrow once a week. I started a good softball size then it grew to a good soccer ball then basketball in two weeks and more. I would pull out a good half of a 5 gallon bucket once every week for 2 months. Then now im only pulling half every 2 - 3 weeks with 10 ppm nitrates. Growth has slowed down but thats ok since thats where i want it instead of near 0.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Should I let this refugium do its thing? Will the elevated nitrates prevent my chaeto from taking off?
The nitrates and phosphates should make the cheato grow quickly given light, flow, and possibly an iron supplement.

Or should I intervene and work on getting these nutrients lower? If so, multiple very large water changes for me is not practical at the moment. What method would be best in lowering nutrients?
If you have an efficient skimmer, carbon dosing will certainly help. Would be better if you could reduce the levels with water changes first.

Is my refugium going to be able to lower my nutrients if it is simply a smaller compartment in my Waterbox 220.6 sump or should I lower them so it can try to keep up and manage the nutrients afterwards?
It takes a large amount of Cheato to use large amounts of nutrients. A small fuge might never keep up, let alone reduce nutrients, if the bioload is very high.

If your phosphates are .5, there is also a good sink of phosphate bound to the rock and sand in the tank. This will leach into the water column as you take steps to lower the phosphate level. You might need to do something that addresses phosphate more directly.

You could create a remote fuge like madlos123 to use large quantities of Cheato, or install an Algae Scrubber to control with nitrate and phosphate. Supplying good light and adding some iron and other supplements will help the Cheato do its job. These methods are safe and can be effective if they can support enough algae.

If it's doable for you, carbon dosing to reduce nitrate and some phosphate and Lanthanum Chloride to reduce the rest of the phosphate might do the job more quickly. They are cheap and effective but some caution is needed.

 

[sanzz18]

I used to have 80 ppm nitrates. I feed 3 cubes of frozen food a day Then I got my chaeto in a bucket in my sump started. Got a 50W plant light and turn it only for 12 hours every night and dose chaetogrow once a week. I started a good softball size then it grew to a good soccer ball then basketball in two weeks and more. I would pull out a good half of a 5 gallon bucket once every week for 2 months. Then now im only pulling half every 2 - 3 weeks with 10 ppm nitrates. Growth has slowed down but thats ok since thats where i want it instead of near 0.

I would love to have results like this. How big is your sump compared to your tank? My display is 167g and my refugium section on my sump is less than 10g. I am starting with a softball size as well.

Should I let this refugium do its thing? Will the elevated nitrates prevent my chaeto from taking off?
The nitrates and phosphates should make the cheato grow quickly given light, flow, and possibly an iron supplement.

Or should I intervene and work on getting these nutrients lower? If so, multiple very large water changes for me is not practical at the moment. What method would be best in lowering nutrients?
If you have an efficient skimmer, carbon dosing will certainly help. Would be better if you could reduce the levels with water changes first.

Is my refugium going to be able to lower my nutrients if it is simply a smaller compartment in my Waterbox 220.6 sump or should I lower them so it can try to keep up and manage the nutrients afterwards?
It takes a large amount of Cheato to use large amounts of nutrients. A small fuge might never keep up, let alone reduce nutrients, if the bioload is very high.

If your phosphates are .5, there is also a good sink of phosphate bound to the rock and sand in the tank. This will leach into the water column as you take steps to lower the phosphate level. You might need to do something that addresses phosphate more directly.

You could create a remote fuge like madlos123 to use large quantities of Cheato, or install an Algae Scrubber to control with nitrate and phosphate. Supplying good light and adding some iron and other supplements will help the Cheato do its job. These methods are safe and can be effective if they can support enough algae.

If it's doable for you, carbon dosing to reduce nitrate and some phosphate and Lanthanum Chloride to reduce the rest of the phosphate might do the job more quickly. They are cheap and effective but some caution is needed.

For someone who never touched anything related to carbon dosing, a complete newb. What would you recommend?

Thanks for this helpful info.

 

[madlos123]

I have a 90 gallon display with a 40 gallon breeder sump. I am using a sterilite 7 gallon trashcan probably filled with 6 gallon of water/chaeto.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rubbermaid-7-Gal-Black-Rectangular-Trash-Can-2099591/309820165
Im using 265 gph pump i got from ebay and that pumps water in the trashcan.
For plumbing im using 3/4 pvc for input and 1 inch for drain 90° elbow and street elbow. I just drilled the the holes slightly smaller than the pipes so i can push it in. No bulkheads needed.
I also matched the sump water height and the trashcan water height to prevent noise. Since its in the sump im not worried about leaking.
Im using pvc trim i got at menards to place my light to prevent light spill. The pvc trim is also just super glued to each other. The light is zip tied.
Im using one of the 50w grow light you get at amazon. I have a fan above the light to prevent overheating.

 

[madlos123]

Ohh shoot i just realize in my picture is that rusted screws? :O
Well ill stop by menards and get some stainless steel screws tomorrow.
Btw this has been only running for ~ 3 months
Well i guess theres my iron supplement
Haha lol

 

[ariellemermaid]

lol

I'm always amazed when folks think chemicals are unnatural.

Lanthanum binding phosphate? Natural process in the ocean. Very important in deep water.

Iron oxide binding phosphate? Happens in sediments all the time.

Vinegar to drive nitrate reduction? That's the single highest turnover organic chemical (acetate) in the ocean, driving plenty of natural denitrification.

We just amplify natural processes, package them conveniently for use, and put them in reef tanks, we didn't invented them out of thin air.

Can you elaborate on the vinegar point? I haven’t looked into vinegar dosing much, but a cursory search suggests the idea is to increase bacterial (population) nitrate uptake -> export bacteria via skimming. However I have a QT where skimming and refugiums aren’t an option. Don’t get me wrong; nitrates stay around 20 and acro’s thus far have remained alive but not grown, so it’s sustainable just not ideal. Would vinegar dosing without skimming be something you would recommend for such a tank?

 

[Arego]

What are you doing for their calcium, alk, etc..? Dosing any trace elements? You can grow acroporas in 20-40 like weeds if it's stable enough and everything else they need is appropriately added/balanced.

 

[Lavey29]

I have a 90 gallon display with a 40 gallon breeder sump. I am using a sterilite 7 gallon trashcan probably filled with 6 gallon of water/chaeto.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rubbermaid-7-Gal-Black-Rectangular-Trash-Can-2099591/309820165
Im using 265 gph pump i got from ebay and that pumps water in the trashcan.
For plumbing im using 3/4 pvc for input and 1 inch for drain 90° elbow and street elbow. I just drilled the the holes slightly smaller than the pipes so i can push it in. No bulkheads needed.
I also matched the sump water height and the trashcan water height to prevent noise. Since its in the sump im not worried about leaking.
Im using pvc trim i got at menards to place my light to prevent light spill. The pvc trim is also just super glued to each other. The light is zip tied.
Im using one of the 50w grow light you get at amazon. I have a fan above the light to prevent overheating.

Great DIY skills, clean set up.

 

[madlos123]

Thanks i actually have some extra stainless steel bolts that matches now all fixed

 

[ReefGeezer]

I would love to have results like this. How big is your sump compared to your tank? My display is 167g and my refugium section on my sump is less than 10g. I am starting with a softball size as well.

For someone who never touched anything related to carbon dosing, a complete newb. What would you recommend?

Thanks for this helpful info.

To be honest, I only carbon dose a little now just to maintain some diversity. When nitrate issues were a problem, this regime helped me manage them. http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium.

Carbon dosing reduces nitrates at about a 10:1 ratio to phosphates. Additional help will be required to reduce the phosphates you have built up in your system. GFO works but is kind of expensive. Lanthanum Chloride is very effective but you need to use it carefully. I have dosed it into my skimmer in the past. It is cheap and very effective. Here's a Reef Central thread where it is discussed.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-lanthanum-chloride-into-skimmer-tips.685598/

Using your refugium area is a good idea. It may not be large enough to completely solve your problem, but it ill help. I do have a question... why can't you do water changes? They sure would help along whatever process you decide to implement. It would be worth the effort to make them possible.

 

[SlugSnorter]

I have been battling with what I feel is elevated nutrients. I had setup a chaeto refugium with marinepure cubes a couple weeks ago after posting a question a month or two ago on here. I tested my nutrients this morning; phosphate is 0.5 and nitrates are between 25-40 on the nyos kit. I am not chasing any numbers but I am really eager to get these numbers lower so I can really start adding SPS testers since my tank is roughly a year old with coraline, sponges, filter feeders all over the place. I think my tank is ready for SPS if it wasn't for the high/unstable nutrient levels.

I have a Waterbox 220.6 tank with a refugium section built into the sump. Should I let this refugium do its thing? Will the elevated nitrates prevent my chaeto from taking off?

Or should I intervene and work on getting these nutrients lower? If so, multiple very large water changes for me is not practical at the moment. What method would be best in lowering nutrients?

also maybe feed a little less. make sure to do once week waterchanges of around but not less than10%,

 

[sanzz18]

Ohh shoot i just realize in my picture is that rusted screws? :O
Well ill stop by menards and get some stainless steel screws tomorrow.
Btw this has been only running for ~ 3 months
Well i guess theres my iron supplement
Haha lol

I love your DIY Refugium. I may have to look into doing something like this to maximize chaeto space. Thanks for the pics!

To be honest, I only carbon dose a little now just to maintain some diversity. When nitrate issues were a problem, this regime helped me manage them. http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium.

Carbon dosing reduces nitrates at about a 10:1 ratio to phosphates. Additional help will be required to reduce the phosphates you have built up in your system. GFO works but is kind of expensive. Lanthanum Chloride is very effective but you need to use it carefully. I have dosed it into my skimmer in the past. It is cheap and very effective. Here's a Reef Central thread where it is discussed.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dosing-lanthanum-chloride-into-skimmer-tips.685598/

Using your refugium area is a good idea. It may not be large enough to completely solve your problem, but it ill help. I do have a question... why can't you do water changes? They sure would help along whatever process you decide to implement. It would be worth the effort to make them possible.

Thanks for the info on carbon dosing. So it is not that I can't do water changes. I do them daily about 2.5-3 gallons each time. The last time I did the biggest water change on my tank, it was about 45 gallons. It had no effect on phosphate because obviously a lot if bound to rock/sand, and did not seem to lower nitrates by 20-25% like it should (because I have about 180g of water in the system). To me it is just a waste of salt (Tropic Marin Pro lol) and I also do not have the time to do multiple 45-50g water changes a week to get the levels closer to where I want them. I can see if I can do

also maybe feed a little less. make sure to do once week waterchanges of around but not less than10%,

The only thing I am not willing to do is feed less. I would rather keep the fish eating good, keep immune system up, and figure out ways to export. Based on a lot of reading I really want to go heavy import/heavy export. It is just hard to do in the beginning when you don't really have corals to uptake nutrients. I also do daily water changes automatically with APEX.

 

[ReefGeezer]

So it is not that I can't do water changes. I do them daily about 2.5-3 gallons each time.

OK, yea, I hear ya about trying to do big water changes in a big tank. You're doing 10-12% per week with your automated system. On average, that's better than I do. It could be that the N&P got high early in the tank's life and are just now becoming a worry. I would add the refugium AND slowly implement carbon dosing and remedial phosphate control until the N&P are in an acceptable range. Then I'd cut back on the carbon dosing and phosphate control until I found the balance that keeps everything in check.

Here's something to think about though... Carbon dosing creates bacteria that use organic compounds. That includes ammonia. I'm not too up on how it works, but It will cause nitrifying bacteria to decrease over time. When you want to stop dosing the carbon source, do so slowly so the nitrifying bacteria have a chance to catch up the the load.

 

[sanzz18]

OK, yea, I hear ya about trying to do big water changes in a big tank. You're doing 10-12% per week with your automated system. On average, that's better than I do. It could be that the N&P got high early in the tank's life and are just now becoming a worry. I would add the refugium AND slowly implement carbon dosing and remedial phosphate control until the N&P are in an acceptable range. Then I'd cut back on the carbon dosing and phosphate control until I found the balance that keeps everything in check.

Here's something to think about though... Carbon dosing creates bacteria that use organic compounds. That includes ammonia. I'm not too up on how it works, but It will cause nitrifying bacteria to decrease over time. When you want to stop dosing the carbon source, do so slowly so the nitrifying bacteria have a chance to catch up the the load.

Yeah, so actually, at month 3 I was fighting dinos and bottomed out N&P. I actually had to dose quite a bit of nitrates and phosphates into my system to overcome the dinos. I believe this is a part of my issue from the beginning of my tank.