14 days cupramine then transfer?

[realreef7]

Hi quick question with this method. When you transfer the fish after the 14 day mark assuming you've kept the copper level at therapeutic (.4-.5) levels during the whole 14 days, how long should you leave the fish in the clean sterile QT for observation? Would 1 week be sufficient? I'm dealing with 2 Acanthurus tangs so being ich magents and lets say for whatever reason the 14 days didn't work they should show signs within that 1 week observation time of no copper right?

 

[Humblefish]

Hi quick question with this method. When you transfer the fish after the 14 day mark assuming you've kept the copper level at therapeutic (.4-.5) levels during the whole 14 days, how long should you leave the fish in the clean sterile QT for observation? Would 1 week be sufficient? I'm dealing with 2 Acanthurus tangs so being ich magents and lets say for whatever reason the 14 days didn't work they should show signs within that 1 week observation time of no copper right?

2 weeks would be better, because this also allows time for brook, uronema, bacterial infections, intestinal worms to show up. None of which copper treats.

Copper also doesn't treat flukes, so you might wanna use those 2 weeks to deworm via Prazipro: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/prazipro.247598/

 

[falconut]

I did my treatment a few months ago. I was told to add copper slowly, so I took a week to get up it up. I did a 30 day treatment from the day I got to my level. I then added cuprisorb & carbon & it took about a week to drop. I observed for another month. Of course I was waiting for my 76 day fallow period to end.

I was told you're supposed to lower copper slowly too. Not sure if you were just going to switch them right into a clean tank, but probably better to lower with media or water changes.

I would personally observe for at least two weeks.

 

[Big G]

Welcome to R2R! Most suggest copper for 30 days. Then remove copper or transfer to a clean qt for observation.
Here's the suggested treatment with copper from our own Humblefish. Hope this helps.

Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly Uronema marinum

How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Coppersafe, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for allchemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have prolonged life cycles. Indeed, even 30 days may not be long enough in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

Therapeutic copper levels must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock starts all over again. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; those should not be used in the presence of copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 3-5 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hours recommended on the labels. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. Remove copper after 30 days by running activated carbon.

Pros - Readily available

Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression is a common side effect. If a fish stops eating, don’t add more copper until he resumes. If the fish is still not eating after 2-3 days, start doing water changes (lowering the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. Some species of fish, such as angels, puffers, lions and mandarins are notoriously difficult to treat with copper.

 

[realreef7]

2 weeks would be better, because this also allows time for brook, uronema, bacterial infections, intestinal worms to show up. None of which copper treats.

Copper also doesn't treat flukes, so you might wanna use those 2 weeks to deworm via Prazipro: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/prazipro.247598/

So prior to the start of the copper treatment I observed both fish for 3 weeks and they both came down with flukes which I treated with prazipro before the copper treatment. About 8 days into the copper treatment my powder blue came down with a bacterial mouth infection which I'm happy to say is clearing up with furan-2/sulfaplex. I'm just curious if ich will present itself within a week with no copper? Also I'm aware of the 30 day treatment time frame but 1 out of the 2 fish hasn't eaten since I started the treatment (both fish were eating very well before copper). I also took 7 days to reach therapeutic level of copper. I'm just 6 days away from the 14 day mark of therapeutic level of copper so I thought I would combine the copper treatment with 1 tank transfer. I would normally do ttm to deal with ich but these fish are to big for my 2x10 gallon ttm tanks.

 

[realreef7]

Welcome to R2R! Most suggest copper for 30 days. Then remove copper or transfer to a clean qt for observation.
Here's the suggested treatment with copper from our own Humblefish. Hope this helps.

Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly Uronema marinum

How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Coppersafe, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for allchemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have prolonged life cycles. Indeed, even 30 days may not be long enough in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

Therapeutic copper levels must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock starts all over again. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; those should not be used in the presence of copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 3-5 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hours recommended on the labels. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. Remove copper after 30 days by running activated carbon.

Pros - Readily available

Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression is a common side effect. If a fish stops eating, don’t add more copper until he resumes. If the fish is still not eating after 2-3 days, start doing water changes (lowering the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. Some species of fish, such as angels, puffers, lions and mandarins are notoriously difficult to treat with copper.

This is all correct but I believe 30 days is recommended if you don't plan on transferring the fish after 14 days. Also the 30 days is just intended to leave some buffering room for errors. Someone please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[realreef7]

I figure after the 14 days I would transfer each fish into a separate 10g tank and observe and feed heavy for 1-2 weeks. I would do the full 30 days of copper but I think the fish that is not eating would not last that long and if it does it will be very weak/unhealthy, after all it hasn't eaten anything in 8 days.

 

[Humblefish]

I was told you're supposed to lower copper slowly too. Not sure if you were just going to switch them right into a clean tank, but probably better to lower with media or water changes.

It's always wise to raise Cu slowly, unless faced with an emergency situation such as Marine Velvet Disease. However, it's perfectly fine to lower copper quickly - even instantaneously.

About 8 days into the copper treatment my powder blue came down with a bacterial mouth infection which I'm happy to say is clearing up with furan-2/sulfaplex.

I think I remember this thread. The mouth infection is clearing by combining Furan-2 + Seachem Sulfaplex?

I'm just curious if ich will present itself within a week with no copper?

With an Acanthurus Tang, it should. However, oftentimes fish with a thick mucous coat (e.g. wrasses, clownfish, mandarins, etc.) are asymptomatic even though they are still carrying the parasite.

 

[realreef7]

It's always wise to raise Cu slowly, unless faced with an emergency situation such as Marine Velvet Disease. However, it's perfectly fine to lower copper quickly - even instantaneously.

I think I remember this thread. The mouth infection is clearing by combining Furan-2 + Seachem Sulfaplex?

With an Acanthurus Tang, it should. However, oftentimes fish with a thick mucous coat (e.g. wrasses, clownfish, mandarins, etc.) are asymptomatic even though they are still carrying the parasite.

I've never slowly decreased my copper level in the past, always went from full strength straight to no copper. However I take about 5-7 days to reach therapeutic level of copper depending on which copper I'm using.

@Humblefish that is correct, I'm happy to say that the mouth infection is going away with the combination of furan-2. sulfaplex, good water quality (started to change the water more) and lastly a good diet with vitamins. I know you recommended triple sulfa but I couldn't find it. Also I'm not sure if one or the other worked, I believe at the end it was a combination of all that helped treat it. Also I could be dealing with a different strain of bacteria than what you were dealing with, hence why the medications and the above methods worked for me, who knows.

 

[Humblefish]

@realreef7 That info you just shared with me gives me a basis for trying sulfathiazole the next time I encounter a mouth infection. Thank you.